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Dr. Ambedkar. The second thing we must do is to observe the caution which John Stuart Mill has given to all who are interested in the maintenance of democracy, namely, not “to lay their liberties at the feet of even a great man, or to trust him with power which enable him to subvert their institutions”. There is nothing wrong in being grateful to great men who have rendered life-long services to the country. But there are limits to gratefulness. …This caution is far more necessary in the case of India than in the case of any other country. For in India, Bhakti or what may be called the path of devotion or hero-worship, plays a part in its politics unequalled in magnitude by the part it plays in the politics of any other country in the world. Bhakti in religion may be a road to the salvation of the soul. But in politics, Bhakti or hero-worship is a sure road to degradation and to eventual dictatorship.
Considering how rabidly anti-Modi N.Ram and Malini Parthasarathy are, the editorial line of the Hindu is not going to be surprising. And is Guha any better? His political bias is evident in his writings on History. This is what he had to say in 'India After Gandhi' about the Gujarat riots:
The kar sevaks clambered back into the train, which started moving even as stones were being thrown. However, the train stopped on the outskirts of the station, when a fire broke out in one of its coaches. Fifty-eight people perished in the conflagration. Godhra was a town with along history of communal violence; it had experienced serious riots inhe VHP claimed that it was the handiwork of a Muslim mob. On the other hand, forensic evidence suggests that it originated inside the carriage, and was probably the result of a gas cylinder or paraffin stove accidentally catching fire.
He based his historical narrative on the Banerjee report whose credibility was as good as the one published by the Samajwadi Party post the Muzaffarnagar riots. Our so called 'eminent' historian completely missed any mention of the contradicting forensic or victim testimony. The Nanavati-Shah report was to later negate the Banerjee report and corroborate the findings of the forensics and the testimonies.
You can only imagine how much more political bias he has served cloaked as 'history' to the people. And how much we have mugged up and puked in various examinations.
bias is inherent in human nature . That is why we read so many history books so that we can get multiple perspectives on an issue . Why get so angry ?
Let this thread be for Atal and MMM ji. Modi kaha se aa gaya beech mein? Intellectuals ke saat yehi panga hai. Technicalities mein guss jaate hai. Kal do log Gold aur Platinum pe ladai karr rahe the. Bhawnaon ko samjho.
@foxtrot Historians, like judges, are supposed to rise above bias and present a true account of things. Guha being one of the most prominent historian shares an even greater responsibility. If we start accepting bias as inherent in human nature we should bid good bye to the principles of natural justice as rule against bias (including human bias) is a violation of the principle.
If I were to present a concocted account of Mandal protests calling it a riot by a bunch of brainwashed upper caste youth instigated by the BJP, it will be called pushing my propaganda. And Historians are not supposed to push propaganda.
@foxtrot Historians, like judges, are supposed to rise above bias and present a true account of things. Guha being one of the most prominent historian shares an even greater responsibility. If we start accepting bias as inherent in human nature we should bid good bye to the principles of natural justice as rule against bias (including human bias) is a violation of the principle.
If I were to present a concocted account of Mandal protests calling it a riot by a bunch of brainwashed upper caste youth instigated by the BJP, it will be called pushing my propaganda. And Historians are not supposed to push propaganda.
sir How can you say he is biased,do you have proof against him.Just because your views doesn't match him cannot make him biased. You are well qualified lawyer.What is democracy without the freedom of expression and he is expressing himself within the limits of constitution. You can protest any thing, be it anti mandal or anti congress ,so as he.But one has to be in the limit. Do you think bipin Chandra was not biased,or G Austin or Any other author is free from bias.It will come automatically .Just read the Norman Lowe and arjun dev and see the difference. Both represent the different mindset from where they come.So we need to be little tolerant while reading them without any prejudices. I hope u can understand me.
Who is this new Bharat Ratna Madan Mohan Malaviya? Periyar EVR had said: Malaviyaji doesn’t want lower castes to enter the temples at all. There could be schools or temples meant for them, but separate. He was responsible for the excommunication of a Brahmin who had the gall to sit down for a meal with a non-Brahmin. In the Benares Hindu University school built out of funds raised from non-Brahmins, Brahmins and non-Brahmins are not allowed to mix with each other, and untouchables are denied admission. If we are going to boast of such a person as our leader, what does it speak of our self-respect? To this day, Malaviyaji thinks it a sin to even drink water in the presence of a non-Brahmin! And he carries water in vessels ‘purified’ by Brahmins, and of course cooks for himself, unpolluted by the touch of anyone else. What kind of a country will it be when it is fashioned by a man like him, what kind of an independence is this? When we raise such issues, we are denounced as sinners, but people refuse to ponder. And those who claim to stand for self-respect, why do they seek to hide such ugly spots? Not that if Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviyaji takes food in our presence, our hunger will also be satiated. No, no way. We only want to point out what he would be thinking of us when he has his food in camera, away from the prying eyes of the lower castes. (Editorial in Kudi Arasu 06.09.1931)
you have just stirred up the hornet's nest. Do you seriously want to debate on the ideologies of 19th century born people in 21st century.
Socrates drank poison and died, Copernicus was executed - should we debate that.
Sure the logic of this government is flawed on where to draw a line to recognize anyone to be awarded, Asoka also needs to be felicitated by a Bharat Ratn. These state recognitions need to be scrapped all together to end this debate once for all.
I remember the standard lines "One man's Terrorist is another's Freedom fighter", so we can always contest the effort of anyone.
I am closing this thread for time being as the debate is done and now it will take up casteist lines and in no time will turn gory.
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Dr. Ambedkar. The second thing we must do is to observe the caution which John Stuart Mill has given to all who are interested in the maintenance of democracy, namely, not “to lay their liberties at the feet of even a great man, or to trust him with power which enable him to subvert their institutions”. There is nothing wrong in being grateful to great men who have rendered life-long services to the country. But there are limits to gratefulness. …This caution is far more necessary in the case of India than in the case of any other country. For in India, Bhakti or what may be called the path of devotion or hero-worship, plays a part in its politics unequalled in magnitude by the part it plays in the politics of any other country in the world. Bhakti in religion may be a road to the salvation of the soul. But in politics, Bhakti or hero-worship is a sure road to degradation and to eventual dictatorship.
Reddy ki bhavnao ko samajna muskhil hi nahi namumkin hai
If I were to present a concocted account of Mandal protests calling it a riot by a bunch of brainwashed upper caste youth instigated by the BJP, it will be called pushing my propaganda. And Historians are not supposed to push propaganda.
How can you say he is biased,do you have proof against him.Just because your views doesn't match him cannot make him biased.
You are well qualified lawyer.What is democracy without the freedom of expression and he is expressing himself within the limits of constitution. You can protest any thing, be it anti mandal or anti congress ,so as he.But one has to be in the limit.
Do you think bipin Chandra was not biased,or G Austin or Any other author is free from bias.It will come automatically .Just read the Norman Lowe and arjun dev and see the difference. Both represent the different mindset from where they come.So we need to be little tolerant while reading them without any prejudices. I hope u can understand me.
Who is this new Bharat Ratna Madan Mohan Malaviya?
Periyar EVR had said:
Malaviyaji doesn’t want lower castes to enter the temples at all. There could be schools or temples meant for them, but separate.
He was responsible for the excommunication of a Brahmin who had the gall to sit down for a meal with a non-Brahmin.
In the Benares Hindu University school built out of funds raised from non-Brahmins, Brahmins and non-Brahmins are not allowed to mix with each other, and untouchables are denied admission.
If we are going to boast of such a person as our leader, what does it speak of our self-respect?
To this day, Malaviyaji thinks it a sin to even drink water in the presence of a non-Brahmin!
And he carries water in vessels ‘purified’ by Brahmins, and of course cooks for himself, unpolluted by the touch of anyone else.
What kind of a country will it be when it is fashioned by a man like him, what kind of an independence is this?
When we raise such issues, we are denounced as sinners, but people refuse to ponder.
And those who claim to stand for self-respect, why do they seek to hide such ugly spots?
Not that if Pandit Madan Mohan Malaviyaji takes food in our presence, our hunger will also be satiated. No, no way. We only want to point out what he would be thinking of us when he has his food in camera, away from the prying eyes of the lower castes.
(Editorial in Kudi Arasu 06.09.1931)
you have just stirred up the hornet's nest. Do you seriously want to debate on the ideologies of 19th century born people in 21st century.
Socrates drank poison and died, Copernicus was executed - should we debate that.
Sure the logic of this government is flawed on where to draw a line to recognize anyone to be awarded, Asoka also needs to be felicitated by a Bharat Ratn. These state recognitions need to be scrapped all together to end this debate once for all.
I remember the standard lines "One man's Terrorist is another's Freedom fighter", so we can always contest the effort of anyone.
I am closing this thread for time being as the debate is done and now it will take up casteist lines and in no time will turn gory.