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@Moderator Sorry mod. I should not have posted it here but in that thread shown by you. Acronyms ki hawa chal rahi thi to socha ki chalo ye post kar hi dete he. :-P Can you please move my post there ? Thanks.
Communism: it is a completely egalitarian(not equalitarian) Society. where state has vanished.no private property exist (just like in primitive communism) no country has ever witnessed communism till date they try to achieve it, most of the so called Communist countries have communist party. lenin, stalin, mao tse gave their own theory how to achieve it, just like marx did by keeping economy at base in his base and super structure theory.
Marx considers that after polarization of society revolution will take place and it will establish Proletarian Dictatorship. State (i.e a Socialist one) will bring economic equality. consequently equality will be established in other superstructures(political, social, education etc.) of society . dictatorship will wither away and communism will be achieve.
@Stardust1901 communism is a Utopian concept but it is not flawed. just because its true meaning has been abused by country like china, doesn't mean the concept itself is flawed. Marx's Economic deterministic theory can be called as flawed. in case Russia extreme political inequality, lack of freedom and speech, economic breakdown led to its downfall. Communism should be kept as an ideal by every society, it is not practical to achieve but every society should have a tendency to become egalitarian and establish equalitarianism
@Stardust1901 communism is a Utopian concept but it is not flawed. just because its true meaning has been abused by country like china, doesn't mean the concept itself is flawed. Marx's Economic deterministic theory can be called as flawed. in case Russia extreme political inequality, lack of freedom and speech, economic breakdown led to its downfall. Communism should be kept as an ideal by every society, it is not practical to achieve but every society should have a tendency to become egalitarian and establish equalitarianism
Of course communism sounds very good in theory, but any theory which promises a perfect world is a little too idealistic for the kind of species that we are. The problem with communism is that no one, not even Marx or Engels, actually has a clue how it is supposed to function. Bringing about a proletarian revolution is very easy, but Marx never goes into detail about exactly how socialism is supposed to work and how the transition to communism is going to happen. Marx only talks about these things in broad, generalist terms. This flaw is why all the later communists (Lenin, Stalin, Mao) have had to figure out the role of the state, and its intricate functioning themselves (and always failed). The only conclusion is that this kind of polity is just not feasible in the world we live in, it can maybe work in a future world with an abundance of resources. Having said that, communism is still one of the most important political theories because of its scathing criticism of 19th century laissez-faire capitalism that was prevalent in the West and its insistence on equality. Its popularity is the reason why liberalism incorporated the theory of the welfare state in its system in order to bring about more social justice.
@all@Stardust1901 Although whatever you say is absolutely correct but i feel your answer is incomplete without incorporating the broader idea of socialism and i would argue that there is significant difference between Marxism and socialism if one looks at it from that point of view. Do correct me if i've got this wrong
The way i’ve understood it socialism can mean two things.
1) Socialism as a general theory of social organisation as an alternative to capitalism which generally advocates a social ownership of the means of production.
2) Socialism as an evolutionary stage in Marxism.
I think there has been too much focus on the second point and what socialism means within the Marxist theory.
The word socialism predates Marx and was used first by early socialists like Robert Owen and Saint Simon who had their own strategies to tackle the exploitation caused by unbridled capitalism.eg Robert Owen tried to establish model communities based on cooperation and a humane treatment of workers by provision of leisure time, etc. Different ideas were propounded as an alternative to capitalism or to humanise it like community ownership, state ownership,etc . Not all socialists believe in nationalisation of industry either. Thus, there are different alternatives offered and thus different varieties of socialism.
The common threads that run between all these varieties of socialism are that they a seek a relatively egalitarian order and generally ascribe to some type of social ownership of factors of production but socialism could vary from the reformist to the revolutionary (read Marxist).
Marxism is just one such variant of socialism (but undoubtedly it’s most prominent and influential variant). Marx dismissed earlier theorists like Owen and Simon as ‘utopian’. He felt that these ideas were not practical and not grounded in the reality(according to him) that class conflict is inevitable and irreconcilable and that the solution to exploitation can only come through revolution. Marxism is not just an economic theory but a worldview grounded in dialectical materialism and the subsequent application of this is his materialist conception of history.
(explaining this would require a bit of prior knowledge of the Hegelian idea of dialectics which is quite unnecessary according to me for someone studying GS but in short Marx believed that historical development is moving in a particular direction and that direction is determined by material(economic) conditions of society. Thus he said that the transition from feudalism to capitalism, subsequently to socialism and finally to communism was inevitable. Now here we come to the second meaning of socialism as an evolutionary stage to communism which has already been explained wonderfully. But i think the broader idea of socialism is more important than this understanding of socialism unless you are a student of Political Science)
Marxist theory undoubtedly had a significant influence on other varieties of socialism and other varieties of socialism have incorporated Marx’ ideas to varying extents but the difference between socialism and Marxism is that a socialist may not believe in dialectical materialism, the materialist conception of history or the revolutionary means which were required according to Marx to establish an egalitarian order while the Marxist would most certainly believe in this.
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Comments
Sorry mod. I should not have posted it here but in that thread shown by you. Acronyms ki hawa chal rahi thi to socha ki chalo ye post kar hi dete he. :-P
Can you please move my post there ?
Thanks.
Communism: it is a completely egalitarian(not equalitarian) Society. where state has vanished.no private property exist (just like in primitive communism) no country has ever witnessed communism till date they try to achieve it, most of the so called Communist countries have communist party.
lenin, stalin, mao tse gave their own theory how to achieve it, just like marx did by keeping economy at base in his base and super structure theory.
Marx considers that after polarization of society revolution will take place and it will establish
Proletarian Dictatorship. State (i.e a Socialist one) will bring economic equality. consequently equality will be established in other superstructures(political, social, education etc.) of society . dictatorship will wither away and communism will be achieve.
Socialism is a path to achieve Communism.
just because its true meaning has been abused by country like china, doesn't mean the concept itself is flawed. Marx's Economic deterministic theory can be called as flawed. in case Russia extreme political inequality, lack of freedom and speech, economic breakdown led to its downfall.
Communism should be kept as an ideal by every society, it is not practical to achieve but every society should have a tendency to become egalitarian and establish equalitarianism
Bringing about a proletarian revolution is very easy, but Marx never goes into detail about exactly how socialism is supposed to work and how the transition to communism is going to happen. Marx only talks about these things in broad, generalist terms.
This flaw is why all the later communists (Lenin, Stalin, Mao) have had to figure out the role of the state, and its intricate functioning themselves (and always failed). The only conclusion is that this kind of polity is just not feasible in the world we live in, it can maybe work in a future world with an abundance of resources.
Having said that, communism is still one of the most important political theories because of its scathing criticism of 19th century laissez-faire capitalism that was prevalent in the West and its insistence on equality. Its popularity is the reason why liberalism incorporated the theory of the welfare state in its system in order to bring about more social justice.
and i thought i missed something about italy... googled it but couldnt find a thing
The way i’ve understood it socialism can mean two things.
1) Socialism as a general theory of social organisation as an alternative to capitalism which generally advocates a social ownership of the means of production.
2) Socialism as an evolutionary stage in Marxism.
I think there has been too much focus on the second point and what socialism means within the Marxist theory.
The word socialism predates Marx and was used first by early socialists like Robert Owen and Saint Simon who had their own strategies to tackle the exploitation caused by unbridled capitalism.eg Robert Owen tried to establish model communities based on cooperation and a humane treatment of workers by provision of leisure time, etc. Different ideas were propounded as an alternative to capitalism or to humanise it like community ownership, state ownership,etc . Not all socialists believe in nationalisation of industry either. Thus, there are different alternatives offered and thus different varieties of socialism.
The common threads that run between all these varieties of socialism are that they a seek a relatively egalitarian order and generally ascribe to some type of social ownership of factors of production but socialism could vary from the reformist to the revolutionary (read Marxist).
Marxism is just one such variant of socialism (but undoubtedly it’s most prominent and influential variant). Marx dismissed earlier theorists like Owen and Simon as ‘utopian’. He felt that these ideas were not practical and not grounded in the reality(according to him) that class conflict is inevitable and irreconcilable and that the solution to exploitation can only come through revolution. Marxism is not just an economic theory but a worldview grounded in dialectical materialism and the subsequent application of this is his materialist conception of history.
(explaining this would require a bit of prior knowledge of the Hegelian idea of dialectics which is quite unnecessary according to me for someone studying GS but in short Marx believed that historical development is moving in a particular direction and that direction is determined by material(economic) conditions of society. Thus he said that the transition from feudalism to capitalism, subsequently to socialism and finally to communism was inevitable. Now here we come to the second meaning of socialism as an evolutionary stage to communism which has already been explained wonderfully. But i think the broader idea of socialism is more important than this understanding of socialism unless you are a student of Political Science)
Marxist theory undoubtedly had a significant influence on other varieties of socialism and other varieties of socialism have incorporated Marx’ ideas to varying extents but the difference between socialism and Marxism is that a socialist may not believe in dialectical materialism, the materialist conception of history or the revolutionary means which were required according to Marx to establish an egalitarian order while the Marxist would most certainly believe in this.