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We want an informed debate here. A few days back, I had written my own little analysis hoping to elicit some resonse from people on this forum. I had written: This intolerance thing is neither a BJP thing nor a congress thing. It is the logical result of the work done by the various hindutva forces over the past decades. From Kerala to Kashmir, from Gujarat to assam, millions of dedicated prcharaks, sainiks and their kind roam around spreading the most vicious hate propaganda coupled with a hyper-nationalistic rhetoric. Much before Dadri happened, one could see thousands of posters in my hometown demanding 'gauhatyara ko phansee do'. You call this tolerance?
Yes, many muslims are also intolerant in India. But there is no organisation among muslims at the scale of the RSS, Bajrang dal, VHP, or the like to spread hatred and polarise people. Nor do they have a party catering exclusively to them like the BJP. From time to time brainwashed muslim youth fall prey to the terror bug and kill people, which is condemnable. But that's nothing in scale and extent compared to the slow poison that has spread over the country.
John Philip and others, why dont you answer this? You are literally ignoring the elephant in the room.
We want an informed debate here. A few days back, I had written my own little analysis hoping to elicit some resonse from people on this forum. I had written: This intolerance thing is neither a BJP thing nor a congress thing. It is the logical result of the work done by the various hindutva forces over the past decades. From Kerala to Kashmir, from Gujarat to assam, millions of dedicated prcharaks, sainiks and their kind roam around spreading the most vicious hate propaganda coupled with a hyper-nationalistic rhetoric. Much before Dadri happened, one could see thousands of posters in my hometown demanding 'gauhatyara ko phansee do'. You call this tolerance?
Yes, many muslims are also intolerant in India. But there is no organisation among muslims at the scale of the RSS, Bajrang dal, VHP, or the like to spread hatred and polarise people. Nor do they have a party catering exclusively to them like the BJP. From time to time brainwashed muslim youth fall prey to the terror bug and kill people, which is condemnable. But that's nothing in scale and extent compared to the slow poison that has spread over the country.
John Philip and others, why dont you answer this? You are literally ignoring the elephant in the room.
I am a BJP supporter. Not a Hindu or a Hinduwadi.
Btw my observation is bit different. Hindu Communal-ism is by product of Muslim communal ism. There are many Muslim extremists organizations particulary in South India. How have you forgetten MIM- whose leader on record has said he wants to kill all Hindus? Don't forget many Muslims knowing that vote for this party.
I think you know a little about organizations like Deoband, Barelvi, Jamat al Islami etc? They are more bigger and communal than these right wing groups.
Majority of Hindus don't support VHP or Bajrang Dal. Most of them are tolerant. Same cannot be said for Muslims. And my gf happens to be a Hindu Brahmin girl and her family has no problem with our relationship.
I'm not worried about your personal affiliation, only that your observations dont stand on good ground. You cite Deoband, Barelvi, Jamaat-e- islami, etc without appearing to know much about them. Deoband and Barelvi are two religious schools of thoughts, which have nothing to do with spreading hatred. There are both tolerant and bigoted deobandis and barelvis. The jammat-e islami is a cultural and political group, consisting of both tolerant and intolerant people, but again devoid of influence and power in India. I will also give you the name of the biggest group of several millions, the Tabligi Jamaat, which could have rivalled the hindutva brigade, but which is completely inward-looking, and non-political. Then you have the PFI with a few hundred members, or similar groups in Kerala and T.N. Tell me which of them commands resources and power rivalling the RSS with its thousands of shakha and millions of members? Which of these muslim groups has sent hundreds of MPs and MLAs like the hindutva brigade? Which of them wants to force its beliefs on others?
The only political party catering exclusively to muslims is MIM with a lone MP. But then what is MIM compared to Shiv sena and BJP? Just because it's called BJP, does not make it a party of all bhartiya janta. Go and find out the no. of muslim MPs from 1950 till date in these 2 parties.
It's to the great credit of the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and their like to poison the minds of millions of ordinary indians with fascist thoughts about the minorities. You just seem to be one of their victims.
I'm not worried about your personal affiliation, only that your observations dont stand on good ground. You cite Deoband, Barelvi, Jamaat-e- islami, etc without appearing to know much about them. Deoband and Barelvi are two religious schools of thoughts, which have nothing to do with spreading hatred. There are both tolerant and bigoted deobandis and barelvis. The jammat-e islami is a cultural and political group, consisting of both tolerant and intolerant people, but again devoid of influence and power in India. I will also give you the name of the biggest group of several millions, the Tabligi Jamaat, which could have rivalled the hindutva brigade, but which is completely inward-looking, and non-political. Then you have the PFI with a few hundred members, or similar groups in Kerala and T.N. Tell me which of them commands resources and power rivalling the RSS with its thousands of shakha and millions of members? Which of these muslim groups has sent hundreds of MPs and MLAs like the hindutva brigade? Which of them wants to force its beliefs on others?
The only political party catering exclusively to muslims is MIM with a lone MP. But then what is MIM compared to Shiv sena and BJP? Just because it's called BJP, does not make it a party of all bhartiya janta. Go and find out the no. of muslim MPs from 1950 till date in these 2 parties.
It's to the great credit of the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and their like to poison the minds of millions of ordinary indians with fascist thoughts about the minorities. You just seem to be one of their victims.
Many terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan are deobandis. Deobandism is a sub-continent version of wahabism.
Barelvis supported Pakistan and direct action day. Many terrorists and criminals of India are barelvis. Kashmiri terrorists also happen to be barelvis. Azad Maidan and other riots in India were instigated barelvi outfits.
Comparing RSS to PFI, NDF and SIMI is ludicrous. RSS and its affiliated organizations have never been involved in terrorism.
You continue being a pseudo liberal. True liberals will never support practicing Muslims.Only the fake wannabe ones in India will do that.Because their way of life is against principles of liberalism.
@cito So you say all the muslims groups have both tolerant and bigoted members and you underline it as if to potray that you have an open mindset. That point is well taken. But then you yourself blatantly paint with the same brush millions of members of VHP and BJP and RSS as intolerant. Just one question, do you think every member of BJP VHP RSS is intolerant and only "some" members of deobandis are? Because then that'll prove just how illiterate you are. How do you conclude every member of them to be a fascist?
Millions of poisoned minds? Are you serious? Did millions of hindu poisoned minds start killing minorities? Have you counted the millions? If there is one religion that can attract and poison millions of minds it is misinterpreted Islam. We have well educated youths with no financial issues, software developers, technicians working in Banglore and Hyderabad flying off to join ISIS. Don't try with me the underdevelopment card.
You must be one of those "Its BJP- its communal- ergo its fascist". Maybe you could better explain how percentage of muslims has risen from 12 to 15% since independence. And percentage of hindus has decreased from 15 to 2.1% in pakistan.
Now to your question about muslims not having a strong group. It is because of their population. If they were in place of hindus having 80% population they would have the same backing and same amount of support. Perhaps even more fascist as is evident in Pakistan's case where hindu population dwindled from 15% to single digit percentage. Now you'll see for yourself in future how India not only tolerates islam but also makes it an integral part of it.
That is the country that we are. If millions of poisoned hindu fascist minds existed, indian muslims would also have fled to europe as refugees. I get it that you are trying to make a point but don't exaggerate the issue. Trust the government for once, try to look at the positives. I can tell you it is doing a better job than UPA 2 even if it is not flawless.
@K9 It's true I haven't studied every member of the hindutva brigade,and there is diversity in all groups/organisations/parties. So, we can have moderate sanghi, liberal sanghi and extremist sanghi. etc. But about their ground ideology, one can be very sure: Without hyper-nationalistic jingoism and minority bashing, the sangh would lose its raison d'etre.
Your reasoning suffers from some defects. Yes, millions of hindus are not killing millions of muslims, but that does not mean that there are no poisoned minds. If this were true, the efforts of millions of RSS volunteers, local-level politicians, and other senas since so many decades would have been in vain. And I have seen and heard enough of this country to think this is the case. That the muslim population grew by 3% is no indication of anything. It certainly isnt a proxy for the sort of majority goodwil you're trying to establish. Lastly, where did you get the figure of 15% hindus in pakistan? Likely from some hearsay, as this is one of pet figures of the right wing. Dont count them from pre-1947, because more or less the same thing happened in East and West punjab in 1947 when minority populations dropped to nil. Count from 1950 when the migratory flux stabilised. And you will find the hindu population in Pakistan was not 15% in 1950.
Finally, I invite you to browse through this very thread, or the comments section of any national newspaper story having a muslim angle. The amount of openly inflammatory material might change your perspective about poisoned minds.
@cito I don't want to argue for the heck of it. These are not random numbers thrown by "right wingers". Hindu population in pakistan was 4.4 million in 1947. Now it 2 million. That is decrease not merely in the percentage but in the absolute number.
Every newspaper, every magazine is bashing "hindu groups". I don't see where did you find inflammatory remarks. I said it before, I am against labelling one religious community as the cause of intolerance. It is both ways.
Apparently, when it is intolerance is India it is religious and hindus are behind it. And if it anywhere else, it is just some misguided deviants who don't represent a religion. Then political, social, econmic- all relations are studied just to deny the communal angle. When one or two ignorant Hindus act rashly or some ministers utter ill-thought statement, it is the religious ideology that everyone attacks first. It is this hypocrisy I am against.
There are fringe elements in every community. Leave it at that. Don't jump to conclusions about millions of hindu poisoned minds.
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Comments
I had written:
This intolerance thing is neither a BJP thing nor a congress thing. It is the logical result of the work done by the various hindutva forces over the past decades. From Kerala to Kashmir, from Gujarat to assam, millions of dedicated prcharaks, sainiks and their kind roam around spreading the most vicious hate propaganda coupled with a hyper-nationalistic rhetoric. Much before Dadri happened, one could see thousands of posters in my hometown demanding 'gauhatyara ko phansee do'. You call this tolerance?
Yes, many muslims are also intolerant in India. But there is no organisation among muslims at the scale of the RSS, Bajrang dal, VHP, or the like to spread hatred and polarise people. Nor do they have a party catering exclusively to them like the BJP. From time to time brainwashed muslim youth fall prey to the terror bug and kill people, which is condemnable. But that's nothing in scale and extent compared to the slow poison that has spread over the country.
John Philip and others, why dont you answer this? You are literally ignoring the elephant in the room.
Btw my observation is bit different. Hindu Communal-ism is by product of Muslim communal ism. There are many Muslim extremists organizations particulary in South India. How have you forgetten MIM- whose leader on record has said he wants to kill all Hindus? Don't forget many Muslims knowing that vote for this party.
I think you know a little about organizations like Deoband, Barelvi, Jamat al Islami etc? They are more bigger and communal than these right wing groups.
Majority of Hindus don't support VHP or Bajrang Dal. Most of them are tolerant. Same cannot be said for Muslims. And my gf happens to be a Hindu Brahmin girl and her family has no problem with our relationship.
You cite Deoband, Barelvi, Jamaat-e- islami, etc without appearing to know much about them. Deoband and Barelvi are two religious schools of thoughts, which have nothing to do with spreading hatred. There are both tolerant and bigoted deobandis and barelvis.
The jammat-e islami is a cultural and political group, consisting of both tolerant and intolerant people, but again devoid of influence and power in India.
I will also give you the name of the biggest group of several millions, the Tabligi Jamaat, which could have rivalled the hindutva brigade, but which is completely inward-looking, and non-political. Then you have the PFI with a few hundred members, or similar groups in Kerala and T.N. Tell me which of them commands resources and power rivalling the RSS with its thousands of shakha and millions of members? Which of these muslim groups has sent hundreds of MPs and MLAs like the hindutva brigade? Which of them wants to force its beliefs on others?
The only political party catering exclusively to muslims is MIM with a lone MP. But then what is MIM compared to Shiv sena and BJP? Just because it's called BJP, does not make it a party of all bhartiya janta. Go and find out the no. of muslim MPs from 1950 till date in these 2 parties.
It's to the great credit of the RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena and their like to poison the minds of millions of ordinary indians with fascist thoughts about the minorities. You just seem to be one of their victims.
Barelvis supported Pakistan and direct action day. Many terrorists and criminals of India are barelvis. Kashmiri terrorists also happen to be barelvis. Azad Maidan and other riots in India were instigated barelvi outfits.
Comparing RSS to PFI, NDF and SIMI is ludicrous. RSS and its affiliated organizations have never been involved in terrorism.
You continue being a pseudo liberal. True liberals will never support practicing Muslims.Only the fake wannabe ones in India will do that.Because their way of life is against principles of liberalism.
Continue to support these people.
Millions of poisoned minds? Are you serious? Did millions of hindu poisoned minds start killing minorities? Have you counted the millions? If there is one religion that can attract and poison millions of minds it is misinterpreted Islam. We have well educated youths with no financial issues, software developers, technicians working in Banglore and Hyderabad flying off to join ISIS. Don't try with me the underdevelopment card.
You must be one of those "Its BJP- its communal- ergo its fascist". Maybe you could better explain how percentage of muslims has risen from 12 to 15% since independence. And percentage of hindus has decreased from 15 to 2.1% in pakistan.
Now to your question about muslims not having a strong group. It is because of their population. If they were in place of hindus having 80% population they would have the same backing and same amount of support. Perhaps even more fascist as is evident in Pakistan's case where hindu population dwindled from 15% to single digit percentage. Now you'll see for yourself in future how India not only tolerates islam but also makes it an integral part of it.
That is the country that we are. If millions of poisoned hindu fascist minds existed, indian muslims would also have fled to europe as refugees. I get it that you are trying to make a point but don't exaggerate the issue. Trust the government for once, try to look at the positives. I can tell you it is doing a better job than UPA 2 even if it is not flawless.
Your reasoning suffers from some defects.
Yes, millions of hindus are not killing millions of muslims, but that does not mean that there are no poisoned minds. If this were true, the efforts of millions of RSS volunteers, local-level politicians, and other senas since so many decades would have been in vain. And I have seen and heard enough of this country to think this is the case.
That the muslim population grew by 3% is no indication of anything. It certainly isnt a proxy for the sort of majority goodwil you're trying to establish.
Lastly, where did you get the figure of 15% hindus in pakistan? Likely from some hearsay, as this is one of pet figures of the right wing. Dont count them from pre-1947, because more or less the same thing happened in East and West punjab in 1947 when minority populations dropped to nil. Count from 1950 when the migratory flux stabilised. And you will find the hindu population in Pakistan was not 15% in 1950.
Finally, I invite you to browse through this very thread, or the comments section of any national newspaper story having a muslim angle. The amount of openly inflammatory material might change your perspective about poisoned minds.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan
Every newspaper, every magazine is bashing "hindu groups". I don't see where did you find inflammatory remarks. I said it before, I am against labelling one religious community as the cause of intolerance. It is both ways.
Apparently, when it is intolerance is India it is religious and hindus are behind it. And if it anywhere else, it is just some misguided deviants who don't represent a religion. Then political, social, econmic- all relations are studied just to deny the communal angle. When one or two ignorant Hindus act rashly or some ministers utter ill-thought statement, it is the religious ideology that everyone attacks first. It is this hypocrisy I am against.
There are fringe elements in every community. Leave it at that. Don't jump to conclusions about millions of hindu poisoned minds.