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I m honest and feel it beneath me to take bribe. But seeing what Khemka has to suffer makes me think if I am making the correct decision. Better to remain a nobody than suffer like so being an upright ias. What will happen if I don't follow illegal orders of corrupt seniors and bosses or refuse to take bribe??? Will my family members be harmed? How bad is the risk??? Which are the best and worst services and states for khemkafication?
Im not afraid of life just safety of my family is important. Some uncle is discouraging me saying these things. Just asking.
If it were so bad, nobody would want it, right? About 10 lakh are expected to apply this year. Shed your apprehensions and decide calmly if you want it or not. Best of luck.
I am glad we are having this discussion on ForumIAS. IMO, this conversation is more important than any of the subject preparation threads we have going on. Any sane person that has given this exam and wants to enter the civil services for the right reasons has had the same dilemma as you-- "is it worth the pain?"
It sure isn't a walk in the park to survive a corrupt "system"! There may be immense pressure on you to succumb to (or to at least tolerate) corruption. Some "honest" officers choose not to partake in it personally, but they throw a blind eye when it comes to corruption around them. Only a few others like Mr. Khemka have this zero-tolerance approach where they report any corruption by predecessors, superiors, subordinates etc. that comes to their attention. Obviously, such people become a pain in the neck to the powers that be, and they are subjected to "harassment" in the form of frequent transfers, "insignificant" postings, false allegations, investigations etc. Officers like Mr. Parakh have had to run around the CBI even 8 years after retirement, jeopardizing the stellar reputation they built carefully through decades of honest service to the country.
In short-- yes, there is some truth to what your uncle said (not physical harm to your family, that's a bit paranoid. But they would be put to inconvenience due to transfers and public scrutiny). Get into this field only if you want to/can face such "harassment". No one will judge you if you opt out, there are honestly several other careers where you can serve the nation with a lot less worry and lot more pay! Think long and strong whether this is what you want to do before you get into it.
All that said, you are always going to be faced with resistance and sabotage when you try to change the way business is done in any organization (not just the government, even the private sector). Higher power/authority goes hand-in-hand with higher pressure. You need to be smart enough to navigate the waters and achieve your goals. Despite all the so called "harassment" of honest officials, you can come out virtually unscathed if you are truly honest. We are one of the few countries in the world that has constitutional provisions to protect its civil servants. Recent Supreme Court judgements and the emergence of fixed tenure are also steps in the right direction. Those that bend over backwards in servitude to a particular government are likely to be kicked around when the leadership changes, but those that are honest and efficient are valuable assets that any government would want to keep close. The civil services provide you a wide canvas to serve the country, and the satisfaction you could derive from it will far outweigh any irritants along the way. Just stay true to yourself!
Honesty is a state of mind. There are many people who indulge into 'corruption' and yet they sincerely believe that whatever they are doing is right and necessary. Such people defend corruption ingeniously and candidly.
What is a Crime? There are two essential constituents of crime, actus reus (Actual Act) and mens rea (Intention). Both the act and the intention must be simultaneously present in order to constitute a crime. But, when people sincerely believe that 'corruption' is good or necessary, can we say that the 'mens rea' (intention) is present? For such people, corruption is not a crime rather a necessity.
As some one here said 'is it worth the pain?' is the right question to be asked. Each one of us have our own subtle limitations and pre-conceptions. We must understand and realize that. Is IAS the end of the road? I guess not. We must ask ourselves what we really want from life. If we want fame, stardom, paparazzi, we must act accordingly. If we want a calm and an unruffled life, again we must act accordingly.
The real problem is that a lot of us do not know what we want from life. And it is quite fair not to know that. One would attain a state of self-actualization if one knows perfectly what he/she wants from life. Do not punish yourself. It is just another exam. It is just another part of life.
Everything has a price. If you become an IAS, you will have to pay a price. Are you willing to pay that price? Whether that price will be worth it or not, I guess only time would decide.
Just relax and study for the exam. I guess that is the least as well as the most that I can do for myself.
@advocatusdiaboli Concur with your opinion. But in the post above, you seem to have equated 'mens rea' with motive. There is big difference between motive and intention in a legal sense. Even if their motive is to save the world by doing corruption, and law doesn't mention it amentions an exception, it will still be a crime. (Sorry for nitpicking; couldn't resist :-)
@advocatusdiaboli Concur with your opinion. But in the post above, you seem to have equated 'mens rea' with motive. There is big difference between motive and intention in a legal sense. Even if their motive is to save the world by doing corruption, and law doesn't mention it amentions an exception, it will still be a crime. (Sorry for nitpicking; couldn't resist :-)
I guess you got me wrong here. 'Mens rea' literally means 'guilty mind'.
Black's Law Dictionary defines 'motive' as: "Something, especially, willful desire, that leads one to act."
Salmond said that "Intention is the purpose or design with which an act is done. It is the fore-knowledge of the act, coupled with the desire of it, such foreknowledge and desire being the cause of the act, inasmuch as they fulfil themselves through the operation of the will. An act is intentional if, and in so far as, it exists in idea before it exists in fact, the idea realizing itself in the fact because of the desire by which it is accompanied".
The motive could be anything, trying to save the world or any other justification. However, the important thing with respect to what I was referring to is 'intention' and not motive.
It is said that a person willingly indulging into corruption indulges into corruption because he has a desire of it. But, such a person indulges into corruption and thinks that he is not doing a crime. For him, corruption could be a routine affair or something necessary or something important to save the world or any other thing.
The motive though present is irrelevant here as there could be 'n' number of motives for committing 'corruption'. The point I was trying to make was that such a person does not believe that he is doing a crime for whatever reasons. If a person sincerely believes that he is not doing a crime, can he be ascribed with criminal intention?
I am not talking about Indian Penal Code or our present laws. Such a person is guilty as hell under our laws but does he have 'mens rea'? Does he have a 'guilty mind' because even after indulging into 'corruption', the person still sincerely and candidly believes that he/she is an honest person and may be as per his own conceptions of honesty, even his intention is honest.
Do not take me wrong here for quoting big definitions above or making this a lengthy post. I am only trying to clarify my point to you and not trying to score any point over you. You raised a good point and I got tempted to reply.
Like it has already been said - no line of work is free from risks. Even a librarian risks being buried alive under a pile of books. But to be honest with you, the compensation to hassles ratio of civils is pretty dismal unless you factor in power and respect. Being "Khemkafied" is perhaps more of a matter of pride than fear.
As far as services are concerned, IRS (IT) is pretty cool - attested by Kejriwal. Use a rule of thumb - the more the money involved, the more the vested interests you need to fight. Pick your services accordingly.
As far as states go, I have no idea about any that might qualify as less corrupt.
All I can advise is be true to yourself and only enter civils if you have the grit to survive adversities on an hourly basis ad infinitum.
It's great we r having this debate. Aruna Roy is a good example. She wanted truly to work for the development of our country and so she joined IAS. A few years into the job she realised this is not where she belongs,probably the political pulls and pressures gave no room for the kind of work she wanted to do and so she did a brave thing..she quit . And set herself firmly on the path of her karma doing wonders and changing lives in the process. IAS is only a job after all and as in any other job, u might be bestowed with opportunities to do great work or u might face hurdles and harassment. if u can't handle the pressures does not mean u r weak . As long u remain true to your calling u will always find a way to do the the kind of work u want to do IAS is not the one and only option and thank God for that!
The point I was trying to make was that such a person does not believe that he is doing a crime for whatever reasons. If a person sincerely believes that he is not doing a crime, can he be ascribed with criminal intention?
Not at all. In fact, I love to discuss with you; because it always results in some new learning. -- Let me quote an example: A very poor and superstitious person thinks that his children will pass to a better world (heaven) after death, so he poisons them. He is ignorant about law and claims that he did it for their own good.
Here, no matter what he did it for, no matter what he believed in, his actions will still be called crime and he would be punishable for culpable homicide.
The point I wanted to raise is that mens rea is a very flexible term, and it has more to do with circumstantial evidences than what really goes on in the accused's mind.
So in a case, where a district collector passes a project for construction of girls' school even after getting hints of corruption, in the belief that such schools will ultimately benefit society more than exposing corruption, would he not be held guilty of abeting corruption? Because, if society permits such exceptions even most heinous crimes can be couched in the colour of grand purpose and lack of any desire to do wrong.
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Comments
It sure isn't a walk in the park to survive a corrupt "system"! There may be immense pressure on you to succumb to (or to at least tolerate) corruption. Some "honest" officers choose not to partake in it personally, but they throw a blind eye when it comes to corruption around them. Only a few others like Mr. Khemka have this zero-tolerance approach where they report any corruption by predecessors, superiors, subordinates etc. that comes to their attention. Obviously, such people become a pain in the neck to the powers that be, and they are subjected to "harassment" in the form of frequent transfers, "insignificant" postings, false allegations, investigations etc. Officers like Mr. Parakh have had to run around the CBI even 8 years after retirement, jeopardizing the stellar reputation they built carefully through decades of honest service to the country.
In short-- yes, there is some truth to what your uncle said (not physical harm to your family, that's a bit paranoid. But they would be put to inconvenience due to transfers and public scrutiny). Get into this field only if you want to/can face such "harassment". No one will judge you if you opt out, there are honestly several other careers where you can serve the nation with a lot less worry and lot more pay! Think long and strong whether this is what you want to do before you get into it.
All that said, you are always going to be faced with resistance and sabotage when you try to change the way business is done in any organization (not just the government, even the private sector). Higher power/authority goes hand-in-hand with higher pressure. You need to be smart enough to navigate the waters and achieve your goals. Despite all the so called "harassment" of honest officials, you can come out virtually unscathed if you are truly honest. We are one of the few countries in the world that has constitutional provisions to protect its civil servants. Recent Supreme Court judgements and the emergence of fixed tenure are also steps in the right direction. Those that bend over backwards in servitude to a particular government are likely to be kicked around when the leadership changes, but those that are honest and efficient are valuable assets that any government would want to keep close. The civil services provide you a wide canvas to serve the country, and the satisfaction you could derive from it will far outweigh any irritants along the way. Just stay true to yourself!
What is a Crime? There are two essential constituents of crime, actus reus (Actual Act) and mens rea (Intention). Both the act and the intention must be simultaneously present in order to constitute a crime. But, when people sincerely believe that 'corruption' is good or necessary, can we say that the 'mens rea' (intention) is present? For such people, corruption is not a crime rather a necessity.
As some one here said 'is it worth the pain?' is the right question to be asked. Each one of us have our own subtle limitations and pre-conceptions. We must understand and realize that. Is IAS the end of the road? I guess not. We must ask ourselves what we really want from life. If we want fame, stardom, paparazzi, we must act accordingly. If we want a calm and an unruffled life, again we must act accordingly.
The real problem is that a lot of us do not know what we want from life. And it is quite fair not to know that. One would attain a state of self-actualization if one knows perfectly what he/she wants from life. Do not punish yourself. It is just another exam. It is just another part of life.
Everything has a price. If you become an IAS, you will have to pay a price. Are you willing to pay that price? Whether that price will be worth it or not, I guess only time would decide.
Just relax and study for the exam. I guess that is the least as well as the most that I can do for myself.
Concur with your opinion. But in the post above, you seem to have equated 'mens rea' with motive. There is big difference between motive and intention in a legal sense.
Even if their motive is to save the world by doing corruption, and law doesn't mention it amentions an exception, it will still be a crime. (Sorry for nitpicking; couldn't resist :-)
Black's Law Dictionary defines 'motive' as:
"Something, especially, willful desire, that leads one to act."
Salmond said that "Intention is the purpose or design with which an act is done. It is the fore-knowledge of the act, coupled with the desire of it, such foreknowledge and desire being the cause of the act, inasmuch as they fulfil themselves through the operation of the will. An act is intentional if, and in so far as, it exists in idea before it exists in fact, the idea realizing itself in the fact because of the desire by which it is accompanied".
The motive could be anything, trying to save the world or any other justification. However, the important thing with respect to what I was referring to is 'intention' and not motive.
It is said that a person willingly indulging into corruption indulges into corruption because he has a desire of it. But, such a person indulges into corruption and thinks that he is not doing a crime. For him, corruption could be a routine affair or something necessary or something important to save the world or any other thing.
The motive though present is irrelevant here as there could be 'n' number of motives for committing 'corruption'. The point I was trying to make was that such a person does not believe that he is doing a crime for whatever reasons. If a person sincerely believes that he is not doing a crime, can he be ascribed with criminal intention?
I am not talking about Indian Penal Code or our present laws. Such a person is guilty as hell under our laws but does he have 'mens rea'? Does he have a 'guilty mind' because even after indulging into 'corruption', the person still sincerely and candidly believes that he/she is an honest person and may be as per his own conceptions of honesty, even his intention is honest.
Do not take me wrong here for quoting big definitions above or making this a lengthy post. I am only trying to clarify my point to you and not trying to score any point over you. You raised a good point and I got tempted to reply.
As far as services are concerned, IRS (IT) is pretty cool - attested by Kejriwal. Use a rule of thumb - the more the money involved, the more the vested interests you need to fight. Pick your services accordingly.
As far as states go, I have no idea about any that might qualify as less corrupt.
All I can advise is be true to yourself and only enter civils if you have the grit to survive adversities on an hourly basis ad infinitum.
Aruna Roy is a good example. She wanted truly to work for the development of our country and so she joined IAS. A few years into the job she realised this is not where she belongs,probably the political pulls and pressures gave no room for the kind of work she wanted to do and so she did a brave thing..she quit . And set herself firmly on the path of her karma doing wonders and changing lives in the process.
IAS is only a job after all and as in any other job, u might be bestowed with opportunities to do great work or u might face hurdles and harassment. if u can't handle the pressures does not mean u r weak . As long u remain true to your calling u will always find a way to do the the kind of work u want to do IAS is not the one and only option and thank God for that!
The point I was trying to make was that such a person does not believe that he is doing a crime for whatever reasons. If a person sincerely believes that he is not doing a crime, can he be ascribed with criminal intention?
-----
@advocatusdiaboli
Not at all. In fact, I love to discuss with you; because it always results in some new learning.
--
Let me quote an example:
A very poor and superstitious person thinks that his children will pass to a better world (heaven) after death, so he poisons them. He is ignorant about law and claims that he did it for their own good.
Here, no matter what he did it for, no matter what he believed in, his actions will still be called crime and he would be punishable for culpable homicide.
The point I wanted to raise is that mens rea is a very flexible term, and it has more to do with circumstantial evidences than what really goes on in the accused's mind.
So in a case, where a district collector passes a project for construction of girls' school even after getting hints of corruption, in the belief that such schools will ultimately benefit society more than exposing corruption, would he not be held guilty of abeting corruption? Because, if society permits such exceptions even most heinous crimes can be couched in the colour of grand purpose and lack of any desire to do wrong.
whether you want to maintain your personal integrity or get things done for the welfare of the people? choice will be yours.
i guess the possibility of co-existance of the two will become clear only after joining the service.