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Bomb blast in a church in Pakistan- I dont understand the logic

edited September 2013 in Current Affairs
http://m.thehindu.com/news/international/south-asia/pakistan-church-blasts-toll-rises-to-81/article5159529.ece/

US are doing drone attacks in remote parts of your country. You kill your own citizens and say you will attack christians if US dont stop drone attacks. What is US losing in this? What is the logic of threatening another country by killing your own citizens. I am unable to understand the logic in this.
On the other hand in Kenya, Somalian terrorists have launched an attack on a mall in Kenya to ask Kenyans to withdraw their forces in somalia. I see a logic here but not in the Pakistan incident.
Can anyone help me in understanding this. I was thinking a lot about this but couldnt get any conclusion and hence i am posting this

Comments

  • can a rational man be a terrorist ?
  • @bharat141

    When has "logic" ever been the motivating factor in terrorism?

    Unfortunately for humanity, such principles of logic and causality do not feature in the minds of those who propagate religious extremism and fundamentalism. It was a very smart man who once said that religion is the opium of the masses- and a drug like fundamentalism can cause mass impairment of the mind and render one's judgment completely skewed.
    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
  • @igirit @sanket002

    I agree to the fact that extremistic ideas will skew your way of looking at things. But even illogically also how can someone threaten another country by killing people who.have nothing to do with that country? What might the idea that made them think.they can threaten US with these bombings? Whenever these Pakistani Mujahiddeins want to fight with India, they cross the LOC and fight where as when they want to fight against US why dont they do it? Am i thinking in wrong way? Does the government of Pakistan or ISI have to do anything with these bombings?
  • edited September 2013
    What i believe is the fact that the communalism has always been a part of conflicts among nations. Christianity is prevailing in most of the Western countries and they consider muslim majority countries as a their enemies. . But they are emotionaly connected with Christians living in these countries and whenevr they are being targeted it matters a lot to them. . So Taliban thinks that to control the christianity dominated western world the christian minority in their area can prove to be a negotiating instrument. . .
  • In case of India also. . If some hindus are being attacked in pakistan or any other country. . A nation wide protest starts. . Bt if some muslims are being killed No one bother here. .
  • What these Terrorist are thinking that America is against the Islam. So they look it like Muslim Vs. Christian .

    America is killing Muslims(true Pakistani in views of terrorist) everyday by drone attack , so we will kill Christian(not Pakistan in their views) to stop attacks.

    But IMO after this blast US will increase the frequency of drone attack ..
  • So in their way of thinking it is religion before country and feel US are sympathisers of christians living any where in the world.

    Thank you so much every one for helping me.
  • edited September 2013
    In case of India also. . If some hindus are being attacked in pakistan or any other country. . A nation wide protest starts. . Bt if some muslims are being killed No one bother here. .
    i dnt want to start an argument with u....
    but isnt it the muslims who created ruckus at mumbai n destroyed amar jyoti statue in Mumbai because some illegal bangladeshi immigrants rioted with the bodo - original inhabitant of INDIA ???
    instead of siding with their own countrymen their heart beats more for illegal immigrants .. ryt ???
    And for worse people ( north east ) have to flee from bangalore n other regions of india coz our muslims brothers are "too much " vocal for supporting their illegal immigrants of bangladesh

    Or for the worse .. sikh / punjabi are more less in number in population but when some punjabi sikh killed in usa / england / canada how much exposure it got??


    Point is do nt post stupid comments ... and start something which would snowballed into larger arguments..
    So before posting some comments in line of hindus- muslim propaganda..
    think what you are posting..
  • edited September 2013
    @Badboy
    please dont blame the enitre Muslim community. The people involved in Mumbai riot were actually illegal Bangladeshi Immigrants from some states like Bihar, Assam etc- mostly came from Bangladesh in last 20/25 years and after official deadline 1971. Cause of the riot was that- if they dont support their Bangldeshi bhai, they will be attacked someday. Most of the original Indian Muslims dont support these Bangladeshis.
    Dedication is inversely proportional to Time
  • dude m not blaming any community and u should say this to people
    who are holding entire hindu community responsible
    that they protest if a hindu is killed and ignore if any muslim is killed...

    It is priviledge that here , in INDIA , no matter from whatever community you are .. u r given equal rights and protection...
    still..this type of stupid comments come..anyways
    as i said i dnt have any intention to argue with anybody..infact i have lots of muslim friends and mah best friend is muslim too

    anyways..no point in further stretching it.. i apologize if my comments hurt anyone sentiment :(

    I wl not be further part of this discussion :)
  • there's an excellent article by Mohammad Hanif on the status of Christians in Pakistan,but I couldn't find the link. So my two cents- after the Ahmadi sect,Christians are probably the most vulnerable community in Pakistan. They've been the target of numerous attacks and systemic violence.The reasons are complex-most Christians in Pak are converted low caste Ajlaf Muslims. A community which is mostly poor and downtrodden is seen as an easy target,everywhere in the world. Pak's primary problem is an inability to define citizenhood and link it to civic rights. Once you link religion to citizenship in a multi religious,multi ethnic country,it's a recipe for disaster.So, the Sunnis don't consider Shias citizens, Ahmadis are accused of blasphemy,etc. In fact, a small sect of Central Asian Muslims who sought refuge in Pakistan were persecuted and bombed, because their Mongolian features marked them as 'outsiders'. Moral - logic fled Pak when they tried to create a unireligious state out of a land with 2000 years of religious and ethnic intermingling. It's a confused nation.
    P.S. A bishop in Pak immolated himself to protest against the blasphemy law. Now the govt is planning to put up a statue of him. Go figure.
    The horde sees the fish. Arjuna sees the eye.
    I see the possibility of fish pakoras ;)
    fledgling IRS (C&CE)
  • @ss36 This piece? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/05/pakistans-blasphemy-laws-colossal-absurdity

    Incredibly well written, thanks. His Case of Exploding Mangoes also features a Christian protagonist in Pakistan.
    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
  • i dint want this discussion to take this turn :(

    I am always confused between religious extrimism, fundamentalism and communalism. Are the three same or is there any fundamental difference between them.
  • edited September 2013
    Sorry, I meant Our Lady of Alice Bhatti in my earlier post.

    @bharat141 Let me give this a shot.

    Communalism is, perhaps, the most generic of these terms. It refers to an ideology which attaches significance to one's ethnicity and one's ethnicity only- this could be religion, and sometimes, even castes or groups within the same religion. In India, the word has come to mean this kind of segregation on religious lines. To simplify: A group belonging to X religion denying amenities and facilities to another group because they belong to Y religion is a manifestation of communalism.

    Fundamentalism is a feature that could characterize all religions. It is basically the promotion of orthodox and conservative tenets of a religion-any religion- relying on, for example, the most ancient and "fundamental" texts of a religion. It can be Christian, Islamic, Jewish, and Hindu (although this is a subject of some debate). Fundamentalists tend to argue for a religious point, often false and irrational- and are inflexible about any deviations by followers. It is possible that they have an ulterior agenda of their own. Most importantly, they almost always tend to be non-secular, i.e. not tolerant of other religions and faiths. Fundamentalists also appear to endorse violence, especially to those who belong to a group other than their own.

    Extremism is an ideology which advocates very extreme or strictly polarised viewpoints. In an extremist's world, things are either black or white, and nothing is grey. Their methods and conclusions never follow the morals or standards of society. Extremism, like communalism, can also be between religions, or within religions, or for something entirely non-religious. To simplify: if you've watched V for Vendetta, the protagonist V is a classic extremist, although his cause is not religious. Religious extremism is when the cause is religion.



    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
  • @irigit

    Thank you for such a lucid explanation

    Based on your post this is what i understand and correct me if it is wrong
    1. Communalism - you want every one except your group to be treated as 2nd grade citizens. The group could be formed on any basis.

    2. Fundamentalism - You want all the people to believe in your ideals and dare not deviate from the age old texts that preach a particular religion.

    3. Extrimism - Eradicate everyone who doesnt accept superiority of your group and treat who accept as 2nd grade citizens.

    Am.i missing anything here.
  • @igirit

    apologies for wrong tag in previous post :-(
  • @bharat141

    Yes, I think your understanding is more or less correct, though it might be advisable to not be fixed on a single narrow definition- all these terms are often used loosely and interchangeably, and they must always be understood within context.

    Also, following from my previous post:

    The root of communalism is the idea that all the members of a religious (or ethnic group) have similar economical, political and social interests- which are always in opposition to such interests of other groups- which in turn lead to non-secular tendencies.

    Religious fundamentalism is often detrimental to the followers of that very religion. For instance, both Hindu and Islamic fundamentalists often advocate positions depriving their own women of the most basic rights.
    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
  • @irigit

    Thank you for such a lucid explanation

    Based on your post this is what i understand and correct me if it is wrong
    1. Communalism - you want every one except your group to be treated as 2nd grade citizens. The group could be formed on any basis.

    2. Fundamentalism - You want all the people to believe in your ideals and dare not deviate from the age old texts that preach a particular religion.

    3. Extrimism - Eradicate everyone who doesnt accept superiority of your group and treat who accept as 2nd grade citizens.

    Am.i missing anything here.
    Religions that limit themselves to doctrine alone, even at the cost of logic, or religions that limit freedom of thought and expression, are no more than tools in the hands of those who have ambitions beyond divinity. They are the root cause of terrorism.

    Today's extremist religious doctrine (a perversion of the original lofty thought), is on the same side as fascism. As such, it really is the same entity.

    There is one focus of unquestionable reverence and few objects of hatred. There are footsoldiers that have a chance at promotion and getting closer to the object of reverence or special benefits for their service benefiting the supremo. Add a dash of herd mentality and a pinch of acceptability of extremist behavior in the fraternity - and presto - a well indoctrinated fully disposable soldier of the lord. Use as you please.

    And when the lord / eternal bliss is something that one can get after and "honourable death," you have people happily jumping to their deaths running after an illusion.

    Somebody once said something about this topic - don't remember who:

    Work for me tirelessly in your life / give me your life and I shall give you an eternity of bliss in heaven.

    Humans are smart, but not idiot-proof.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • @ArindamSarkar

    Is the fascism you are talking about same as fascism in Italy during Mussolini regime??
  • someone said "the next world war will be fought over water" i think it will be over Religion ?
  • someone said "the next world war will be fought over water" i think it will be over Religion ?
    Don't know about that but here's what Einstein said,"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
    Be a loner. That gives you time to wonder, to search for the truth. Have holy curiosity. Make your life worth living. - Albert Einstein
  • @ArindamSarkar

    Is the fascism you are talking about same as fascism in Italy during Mussolini regime??
    Yes and no. There in fascist Italy you had a bunch of people that felt extreme national pride and chose the path of a totalitarian state to achieve national superiority by expansionism. Here national pride was taken to extremes.

    The one I'm referring to is more in line with the Nazism (fascism's crazy elder brother) and that which you find in present day north Korea. Here logic concedes to reason. The motive is an ideal of national perfectionism. All in opposition (including pro-democratic voices) are branded out. We all know what that led to in Nazi Germany.

    The illogical ideals of racial or national superiority resonates with that of religious superiority as is the case of religious extremists. Fascism and religious extremism are both expansionist ideas - one aims to conquer the greatest dominion in terms of territory and the other in terms of followers. They are both perfectionist when it comes to cleaning out "impurities" in terms of race, national identity or followers. They both defy logic. The underlying theme in both is "my (anything) is better than yours'. In that sense you can also draw a connection to racism.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited September 2013
    Error corrected version below. 6 minutes is too little.
    @ArindamSarkar

    Is the fascism you are talking about same as fascism in Italy during Mussolini regime??
    Yes and no. There in fascist Italy you had a bunch of people that felt extreme national pride and chose the path of a totalitarian state to achieve national superiority by expansionism. Here national pride was taken to extremes.

    The one I'm referring to is more in line with the Nazism (fascism's crazy elder brother) and that which you find in present day north Korea. Here logic concedes to reason. The motive is an ideal of national perfectionism. All in opposition (including pro-democratic voices) are branded out. We all know what that led to in Nazi Germany.

    The illogical ideals of racial or national superiority resonates with that of religious superiority as is the case of religious extremists. Fascism and religious extremism are both expansionist ideas - one aims to conquer the greatest dominion in terms of territory and the other in terms of followers. They are both perfectionist when it comes to cleaning out "impurities" in terms of race, national identity or followers. They both defy logic. The underlying theme in both is "my (anything) is better than yours'. In that sense you can also draw a connection to racism. know what that led to in Nazi Germany.

    The illogical ideals of racial or national superiority resonates with that of religious superiority as is the case of religious extremists. Fascism and religious extremism are both expansionist ideas - one aims to
    conquer the greatest dominion in terms of territory and wealth and the other in terms of faithful followers. They are both perfectionist when it comes to cleaning out "impurities" in terms of race, national identity or followers. They both defy logic. The underlying theme in both is "my (anything) is better than yours'." In that sense you can also draw a connection to racism.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited September 2013
    "Here logic concedes to reason." ---> "Here logic concedes to irrationality."

    (Damn this BSNL mobile internet! One page takes 10 minutes to load! Add to that this stupid autocorrect that doesn't even know 90% of the words in the OED!!)
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • someone said "the next world war will be fought over water" i think it will be over Religion ?
    I think it already started since 9/11 as you can see a clear discrimination between religions. Though there are people who feels the need to be democratic but many people are treating others as their enemies on the grounds of religion. We have seen US bombarding muslim countries with bombs and also muslim countries supporting the so called jihadis who are against US(read christian in their view) domination of the world. Also Pakistan playing double game of officially supporting US to catch Bin Laden and secretly keeping him in their territorial.safety for nearly 10years. All these show that we are already in a war of religions.
  • For those of you who are interested, sample this: the documentary 'The World Before Her' which juxtaposes an RSS girls' camp against the Miss India beauty pageant.

    More here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/sep/12/world-before-her-women-india-video?CMP=twt_gu

    How can we ever compete against mass brain-washing of this kind (and I speak for all religions!)?
    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
  • good time to read 2nd ARC report on Public Order, Conflict Resolutions and Terrorism. :)
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