INTERVIEW FOR CSE 2019 All ForumIAS members selected for CSE 2019 Personality Test must submit their details and DAF and register below to receive further instructions and guidance from ForumIAS. Click here to register now
INTERVIEW 2020 CHANNEL ForumIAS Channel for Interview Preparation is now Active! Please join the channel by clicking here
All optional takers are also welcome to write an article on a small topic from syllabus and post here. Eg. Descartes' proof for the existence of God or Plato's theory of forms. It would be even better if aspirants can ask other aspirants to write an article on any topic and they would gladly oblige.
I don't see any reason why we can't do it and I was thinking it would be better if we do it not only section but also philosopher and topic wise Eg. Descartes we can put under rationalism and can also add all questions pertaining to his philosophy under his name
Cartesian Dualism or Mind-Body Dualism is one the main philosophical problems that was prevalent since Ancient Greek philosophy but established by Descartes in the modern era. His arguments for this Dualism was rejected by several philosophers like Pf Strawson and it's still a matter of debate.
According to Descartes, mind and body are two substances, relative in relation to God which is the only independent substance.
Arguments given by Descartes for Mind-Body Dualism: 1. Cogito Ergo sum establishes Existence of self but not that of body. Thus they've to be separate. 2. According to Descartes, I've a clear and distinct idea about self but not that of body. Therefore they've to be different 3. I can think of mind without body and body without mind => separate 4. Mind and Body have opposite attributes of thought and extension and can't change into each other 5. Mind is a simple object and doesn't occupy space whereas body is a material object and occupies space.
Criticism 1. By saying that we don't have clear idea of mind but not of body doesn't establish Dualism between the two. This is leading to the fallacy of masked man 2. We can think of "water" and H2O separately but that doesn't mean they're different. It's in the psychology. 3. Strawson refutes Cartesian Dualism for its inconsistencies like identification problem of disembodied mind, differentiation problem of two minds. 4. If body and mind are totally separate then the interaction between them would become impossible. Theory of interactionism is unsatisfactory. 5. Relation between mind and body can be either mental or physical but both ways, there would be inconsistencies as mental/physical can belong to either body or mind and not both and this relationship can't actually be established. 6. Violation of law of energy occurs due to Dualism. 7. Metaphysical issues: Which came first? In order to answer this, Descartes postulated that God is the creator of both, but by accepting this, Descartes Dualism became non-dualism 8. According to Gilbert Ryle , mind in body is like ghost in a machine. To believe that Mind and Body are separate substances is a category mistake , we can't predicate substance to mind.
Conclusion: These days most of the philosophers dont accept theory of substance Dualism but they talk about two types of qualities: mental and physical or linguistic Dualism.
@yoga123 : Nice and thanks a ton for the article!! I have a couple of questions though : 1. In arguments given by descartes, 4th and 5th arguments to me seem essentially same. What's the difference there?
2. In criticism, 2nd argument says that we can think of water and H2O as different substances but that doesn't make them different, but hasn't descartes in fact proved that mind and matter are two completely different substances with two altogether different attributes? One is res extensa whereas the other is res cogitans. So please elaborate the validity of this argument.
3. In 4th and 5th criticisms, how can we say that interaction between mind and body is impossible when we often see the opposite to be the truth. For eg. If I shoot you, you feel pain (Body influencing mind) and If you remember that you forgot your mobile in a restaurant and you rush there to get it back (mind influencing body). I do agree that explanation given by descates regarding interaction btw mind and body in pineal gland doesn't hold valid, I don't see how 4th argument can be true either.
@yoga123 : Nice and thanks a ton for the article!! I have a couple of questions though : 1. In arguments given by descartes, 4th and 5th arguments to me seem essentially same. What's the difference there?
2. In criticism, 2nd argument says that we can think of water and H2O as different substances but that doesn't make them different, but hasn't descartes in fact proved that mind and matter are two completely different substances with two altogether different attributes? One is res extensa whereas the other is res cogitans. So please elaborate the validity of this argument.
3. In 4th and 5th criticisms, how can we say that interaction between mind and body is impossible when we often see the opposite to be the truth. For eg. If I shoot you, you feel pain (Body influencing mind) and If you remember that you forgot your mobile in a restaurant and you rush there to get it back (mind influencing body). I do agree that explanation given by descates regarding interaction btw mind and body in pineal gland doesn't hold valid, I don't see how 4th argument can be true either.
Hey 1. Let's assume we are talking about some other substances (not in philosophical sense) say ears and eyes. We can apply 4th argument to them as they've different attributes and as such can't change into each other. But we can't apply 5th arg to them. I hope u see why these two arguments, though seemingly same are actually different. 2. We're actually refuting Descartes arguments for proving M-B Dualism in all possible ways. This criticism is simply a part of it saying that though we can talk about M without B and vice versa but that doesn't prove their distinct like water and H2O. Just showing the futility of Descartes arguments here. 3. What is said in the interaction is the fact that the way Descartes proves them to be totally different, interaction isn't possible Even his interaction theory can't do it. We are not denying that mind and body are connected. obviosuly they're not totally separate.
Ps. There can be more explanation of every point to make them clearer. But we don't have to go there as far as exams are concerned We have to put as many points as possible (as told by every teacher including philosophy professors). I hope u get the idea
@Rocky_Sultan one suggestion about this thread. Most of the threads of philosophy go dead after a while. Since you've created this thread, keep posting things here and then others would be motivated. As far as paper I is concerned it's quite factual and most of the questions get answered by Patanjali + Mitra mix. So not a lot of benefit is to be gained by discussing obvious questions (like the one above - Cartesian Dualism). U may post questions of paper ii and others may chip in. There are no set answers in paper ii, so it would be much more beneficial to have some good answers collected at one place.
@yoga123 Point duly noted. However I have started this thread also for those absolute beginners like me who aren't taking any coaching. Further I have seen many misconceptions regarding theories of Indian and western philosophy. So writing articles and discussing them is very beneficial in getting the firm ground both for newbies and experienced.
Now regarding aforesaid article, Descartes agrees that in spite of M nd B being different, they are a complete whole. Our common sense also says if A and B are different, it doesn't mean they cannot come together and interact.
Hi , I have patanjali printed and class notes, do I need notes also?
@Rocky_Sultan one suggestion about this thread. Most of the threads of philosophy go dead after a while. Since you've created this thread, keep posting things here and then others would be motivated. As far as paper I is concerned it's quite factual and most of the questions get answered by Patanjali + Mitra mix. So not a lot of benefit is to be gained by discussing obvious questions (like the one above - Cartesian Dualism). U may post questions of paper ii and others may chip in. There are no set answers in paper ii, so it would be much more beneficial to have some good answers collected at one place.
Descartes' causal argument for the existence of God
Causal adequacy principle : Cause has to be at least as great as the effect, as nothing comes out of nothing (Ex nihilo nihil fit)
1. I have an idea of God as omniscient,omnipotent,omnibenevolent and eternal perfect being. 2. I doubt,hence I am imperfect. Because if I would have been perfect, I would have all knowledge that I require and wouldn't need to doubt. 3. As I have the idea of a perfect being (effect) in my mind (cause) which is imperfect (Remember, for Descartes he is a res cogitans), that idea couldn't be a product of my mind (refer to the above priniciple) 4. Hence, the idea of a perfect being (effect) would have been placed in my mind only by a perfect being (cause) and so a perfect being i.e. God must exist.
We are a secret self-moderated community for Civil Services preparation. Feel free to join, start a discussion, answer a question or just to say Thank you.Just dont spread the word ;)Sign in or join with Facebook or Google
ForumIAS is India’s leading Online website for UPSC IAS Exam Online Preparation and guidance. At ForumIAS, we have a dream. Our dream is to make its members achieve their IAS dream. Today thousands of aspirants have joined the elite services such as IAS, IPS, IFS, IRS and other central and state services with the right inputs provided by ForumIAS. Take a look at our IAS Toppers
Free IAS Online Preparation Initiatives by ForumIAS
Current affairs is the most important part of UPSC IAS exam. ForumIAS provides a detailed analysis of important news articles through its 9PM brief. In current affairs reading Editorials Online needs an in-depth focus and hence we provide a separate analysis of daily editorials which is not found in any other website. Click the following link to access these free preparation initiatives in Portal . ForumIAS also provides compilations and Free downloads for UPSC IAS preparation
Knowing is never enough for IAS exam. An IAS aspirant must be engaged in answer writing practice to do well in UPSC IAS Mains Exam. ForumIAS has launched a Mains Marathon initiative for IAS mains Online answer writing. Click here to access UPSC Mains Marathon initiative . For Daily Must Read Newspaper articles, Visit Must Read Newspaper page here. Must Read Newspaper is an Initiative by Team ForumIAS to provide Current Affairs links to the Must Read Articles of The Day from Newspaper.
UPSC Syllabus
The most important part of UPSC IAS exam is its syllabus and there is a need to take an in-depth look at it. Click here to view the UPSC IAS Prelims syllabus. Visit UPSC IAS syllabus page here
UPSC IAS Study Material
ForumIAS is the repository of many toppers’ Online study materials for GS Mains and Optional subjects. The most unique thing about it is that they are handwritten by toppers themselves. Click here for UPSC sample notes
Interview Preparation for IAS
Interview is the last and crucial stage for becoming an IAS officer. How to prepare for it? We provide a solution. ForumIAS is the only online website where quality IAS interview preparations happen. Online Current affairs from an interview perspective are extensively discussed and specific preparation based on candidate’s profile and hobbies can be done. Please visit this link for UPSC Interview Preparation
At ForumIAS we have an exclusive Online page to read the UPSC Interview Transcripts
Indian Forest Service (IFoS)
IFoS is one of the most sought after All India Service. ForumIAS provides the right approach to excel in this exam through their toppers who have shared their success mantras and their study materials in an elaborate manner.
About Indian Administrative Service (IAS)
IAS is considered as one of the best jobs on earth. IAS officers hold the most important positions in Central and State Governments and in Public Sector Undertakings (PSUs). They also represent India in international organizations. They take the most important decisions in the administration of Government policies and development programs.
About Indian Police Service (IPS)
IPS officers occupy higher positions in the State Police Departments, Central Armed Police Forces and Intelligence Agencies. Their most important responsibilities are maintenance of Law and Order and internal security.
About Indian Foreign Service (IFS)
IFS officers serve as diplomats in international missions and embassies of India around the world and in prominent international organizations like United Nations (UN), World Bank, and IMF. They work to promote India’s interests from a bilateral and a global perspective.
The Study portal is a single point of online IAS preparation through its several initiatives like the Must Read News Articles, the 9 PM Brief, the Mains Marathon. If you are preparing for IAS exam online, ForumIAS is the place to go. ForumIAS is proud of ForumIAS Alumni in UPSC Service who have secured top Ranks in past 5 years.
Visit Us At
ForumIAS - Offline Guidance Centre
ForumIAS Academy, 1st Floor, IAPL House, 19, Pusa Road, Opposite Metro Pillar 95-96, Karol Bagh, New Delhi-110005,
View Google Map Location
Comments
if not writing a full answer we can also form stucture only
I don't see any reason why we can't do it and I was thinking it would be better if we do it not only section but also philosopher and topic wise
Eg. Descartes we can put under rationalism and can also add all questions pertaining to his philosophy under his name
Cartesian Dualism or Mind-Body Dualism is one the main philosophical problems that was prevalent since Ancient Greek philosophy but established by Descartes in the modern era. His arguments for this Dualism was rejected by several philosophers like Pf Strawson and it's still a matter of debate.
According to Descartes, mind and body are two substances, relative in relation to God which is the only independent substance.
Arguments given by Descartes for Mind-Body Dualism:
1. Cogito Ergo sum establishes Existence of self but not that of body. Thus they've to be separate.
2. According to Descartes, I've a clear and distinct idea about self but not that of body. Therefore they've to be different
3. I can think of mind without body and body without mind => separate
4. Mind and Body have opposite attributes of thought and extension and can't change into each other
5. Mind is a simple object and doesn't occupy space whereas body is a material object and occupies space.
Criticism
1. By saying that we don't have clear idea of mind but not of body doesn't establish Dualism between the two. This is leading to the fallacy of masked man
2. We can think of "water" and H2O separately but that doesn't mean they're different. It's in the psychology.
3. Strawson refutes Cartesian Dualism for its inconsistencies like identification problem of disembodied mind, differentiation problem of two minds.
4. If body and mind are totally separate then the interaction between them would become impossible. Theory of interactionism is unsatisfactory.
5. Relation between mind and body can be either mental or physical but both ways, there would be inconsistencies as mental/physical can belong to either body or mind and not both and this relationship can't actually be established.
6. Violation of law of energy occurs due to Dualism.
7. Metaphysical issues: Which came first? In order to answer this, Descartes postulated that God is the creator of both, but by accepting this, Descartes Dualism became non-dualism
8. According to Gilbert Ryle , mind in body is like ghost in a machine. To believe that Mind and Body are separate substances is a category mistake , we can't predicate substance to mind.
Conclusion: These days most of the philosophers dont accept theory of substance Dualism but they talk about two types of qualities: mental and physical or linguistic Dualism.
(350-400 words)
2. In criticism, 2nd argument says that we can think of water and H2O as different substances but that doesn't make them different, but hasn't descartes in fact proved that mind and matter are two completely different substances with two altogether different attributes? One is res extensa whereas the other is res cogitans. So please elaborate the validity of this argument.
3. In 4th and 5th criticisms, how can we say that interaction between mind and body is impossible when we often see the opposite to be the truth. For eg. If I shoot you, you feel pain (Body influencing mind) and If you remember that you forgot your mobile in a restaurant and you rush there to get it back (mind influencing body). I do agree that explanation given by descates regarding interaction btw mind and body in pineal gland doesn't hold valid, I don't see how 4th argument can be true either.
1. Let's assume we are talking about some other substances (not in philosophical sense) say ears and eyes. We can apply 4th argument to them as they've different attributes and as such can't change into each other. But we can't apply 5th arg to them. I hope u see why these two arguments, though seemingly same are actually different.
2. We're actually refuting Descartes arguments for proving M-B Dualism in all possible ways. This criticism is simply a part of it saying that though we can talk about M without B and vice versa but that doesn't prove their distinct like water and H2O. Just showing the futility of Descartes arguments here.
3. What is said in the interaction is the fact that the way Descartes proves them to be totally different, interaction isn't possible
Even his interaction theory can't do it. We are not denying that mind and body are connected.
Ps. There can be more explanation of every point to make them clearer. But we don't have to go there as far as exams are concerned
We have to put as many points as possible (as told by every teacher including philosophy professors). I hope u get the idea
Most of the threads of philosophy go dead after a while. Since you've created this thread, keep posting things here and then others would be motivated. As far as paper I is concerned it's quite factual and most of the questions get answered by Patanjali + Mitra mix. So not a lot of benefit is to be gained by discussing obvious questions (like the one above - Cartesian Dualism). U may post questions of paper ii and others may chip in. There are no set answers in paper ii, so it would be much more beneficial to have some good answers collected at one place.
Now regarding aforesaid article, Descartes agrees that in spite of M nd B being different, they are a complete whole. Our common sense also says if A and B are different, it doesn't mean they cannot come together and interact.
1. I have an idea of God as omniscient,omnipotent,omnibenevolent and eternal perfect being.
2. I doubt,hence I am imperfect. Because if I would have been perfect, I would have all knowledge that I require and wouldn't need to doubt.
3. As I have the idea of a perfect being (effect) in my mind (cause) which is imperfect (Remember, for Descartes he is a res cogitans), that idea couldn't be a product of my mind (refer to the above priniciple)
4. Hence, the idea of a perfect being (effect) would have been placed in my mind only by a perfect being (cause) and so a perfect being i.e. God must exist.