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Topper's GS4 Answers - Am I unethical or are their answers impractical?

edited June 2016 in Ethics
I was going through the GS SCore test copies of a few toppers and there are a few things that I have noted. I'll use the following copy as an example -

http://iasscore.in/pdf/copy/Ethics/ETHICS/AIR 34 ASHWANI KUMAR PANDEY ETHICS-3.pdf

Question 1 - Good answer. But how about the Nordic countries that are quite green. The generalisation in the 3rd last paragraph is factually wrong.

Question 2 - The second part - Point 2 - Ridiculous to believe that you'll have that luxury.

Question 3 - This is just a downright anti-libertarian stance. Why not increase your social welfare more by progressive taxation instead? This is ridiculously impractical.

Question 4 - Grammatical error in para 2.

Question 6 - "Advocates (highly paid)...." - what is the imputation?

Question 7 - The example of Lee Kuan Yew. Is that really apt when writing for the CSE in this democracy of ours? Just read this - http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/03/lee-kuan-yew-conundrum-democracy-singapore/388955/

Question 8 - We all love politician-bashing. But where's the other side? Where are the examples of the founding fathers to bear contrast? Where's the discussion about the other types of corruption and how they harm? It's not very balanced.

Question 10 - Recommendations are too idealistic and impractical

Am I too unethical or are these answers just too impractical? What is the UPSC looking for - dumb submission to ideals (doomed to fail) or practical ethics?
Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
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Comments

  • Does this boil down to what we consider to be our ideal? Is this about choosing your priorities between libertarianism vs social justice?

    I'm doomed then.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited June 2016
    Dear etat, toppers' answers in the exam hall can be different from those test series answers... And obviously you know the purpose of writing a test series... having said that, I also think that there is subjectivity in the evaluation process...:)
    Others, esp selected ones, may provide some outlook into this... :) waiting for that...
    And of course, I don't think you are unethical... :smiley:
  • Thanks :)
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • @Etat... Dada I believe there is no need to get into too many technicalities and logic. Our answers have to common sense base... Nobody I think has the time to verify whether we are technically or factually correct or not?
    Moreover ethics paper by upsc is not the fool proof method of checking ethics. at the end of the day it is just about writing skills.
    And remember you are not unethical. :)
    When the going gets tough, the tough gets going :)
  • ^^ Not really. If the trend I spotted is correct, then they reward those with anti-capitalistic or pro-redistributionistic bias. They're not a fan of libertarians (like myself).
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited June 2016
    Low score in ethics paper makes one unethical, wonders you.

    Whether low score in Law optional makes one illegitimate, wonders I.
    A Lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep.
    https://www.facebook.com/jaime.kngslyr.1
    contactjaime123@gmail.com
    twitter @contactjaime123
    My Book https://www.amazon.in/dp/B07B2N695F
  • Ethics and essay are pure lottery.better to invest time in gs and optional.
    Last year i got 95 in ethics this year 78.last i got 128 in essay this year 118.so there is no logic.it depends on whether examiner likes ur answer or not(personal judgement).
    I performed badly in gs123 last year but i was able to improve my score got 346 in gs as against 267(which included 95 in ethics).
    I have just come to conclusion that i was unlucky enough not to have scored in these two papers as i missed interview call by 18 marks in gen cat.
  • I guess this is an issue with not only this particular paper but with any descriptive type answers. Perceptions of readers vary a lot and everybody's opinion is debatable as to what constitutes a balanced/ideal/practical/ethical/ answer-Marks laane wale surprised rehte hain ki itna kaise aa gaye aur nahi laane wale surprise rehte hain ki itna kam kyun aaya. Itna analyse mat karo bhai-enjoy the gamble :)
  • edited June 2016
    Etat said:

    ^^ Not really. If the trend I spotted is correct, then they reward those with anti-capitalistic or pro-redistributionistic bias. They're not a fan of libertarians (like myself).

    Dada, I would like to humbly put across my point of view.

    One of the expected qualities of a civil servant is adherence to books, rules, laws, conventions and constitution with occasional innovation(in real life, when nothing in the books seem practical).

    Answer writing in GS, especially in ethics paper, is very straight forward.
    For every situation presented, One has to chisel the solution according to the books. If necessary, one can "Suggest" the practical limits and solutions for that.
    I personally hold a view that the person evaluating ethics answers will look to judge the student based on his knowledge of "standard procedures".

    Our constitution clearly mentions the word "Socialist" in our preamble. No wonder they are looking for its essence in our answers. :)
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • @Etat
    Moral storm can be interpreted like this also...

    to bring the equality, wealth creation is required..and as all material things come from exploiting the nature. We are bound to destroy it in one way or other in some extent or larger. That's the moral crisis..in the prevailing economic model..to achieve the targets of welfare state wealth creation thus exploiting the nature can not be avoided. It means to do away with poverty, to give everybody jobs and wipe out the miseries...development in prevailing sense is not optional..thus exploiting the nature. And we know exploiting the nature has a huge cast for future..that's the moral crisis. You are doomed either ways.


    There have been advocacy for classical case of increasing the size of cake before distributing it equally. Now one may argue taking hint from Gandhi's statement that there is always enough for need but not for greed which points to the fact that size is not that important it's the equal distribution, which is at the central. I think this is half cooked argument.

    well well well!! Gandhi may be Gandhi but there is a real and pragmatic world which has certain historical experience and that is "to abandon creating the wealth is not even an option". Equal distribution is not ensured that is a different problem.
    Why to be a "dahi bhalla" when you can become fried split black gram dumpling smothered with sweetened yoghurt, tamarind and mint sauce.
  • ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • ^^ I have strong points supporting your views..but I have to entangle my fingers in fried pipe papads..to enjoy the delicacy so i am refraining :wink:
    Why to be a "dahi bhalla" when you can become fried split black gram dumpling smothered with sweetened yoghurt, tamarind and mint sauce.
  • @Etat
    Moral storm can be interpreted like this also...

    to bring the equality, wealth creation is required..and as all material things come from exploiting the nature. We are bound to destroy it in one way or other in some extent or larger. That's the moral crisis..in the prevailing economic model..to achieve the targets of welfare state wealth creation thus exploiting the nature can not be avoided. It means to do away with poverty, to give everybody jobs and wipe out the miseries...development in prevailing sense is not optional..thus exploiting the nature. And we know exploiting the nature has a huge cast for future..that's the moral crisis. You are doomed either ways.


    There have been advocacy for classical case of increasing the size of cake before distributing it equally. Now one may argue taking hint from Gandhi's statement that there is always enough for need but not for greed which points to the fact that size is not that important it's the equal distribution, which is at the central. I think this is half cooked argument.

    well well well!! Gandhi may be Gandhi but there is a real and pragmatic world which has certain historical experience and that is "to abandon creating the wealth is not even an option". Equal distribution is not ensured that is a different problem.

    On one hand you have poverty being labelled as the greatest form of violence and on the other hand you want to redistribute the slices of a half-baked pie when it won't fill anyone's stomach. I wonder what purpose it would serve rather than keeping people poor in perpetuity. You must break out of the vicious cycle of poverty and there's just one model that satisfies this - Bhagwati.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • ^^ I have strong points supporting your views..but I have to entangle my fingers in fried pipe papads..to enjoy the delicacy so i am refraining :wink:

    Entangle with please, Sir Potassium. Diet heart hypothesis rests in its grave as we speak. :)
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited June 2016
    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • pizza said:

    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Satyam bruyat-ofied.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • pizza said:

    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Who will you take command from when in moral dilemma ??

    1- Conscience
    2- Constitution
    3- Kings


    Why to be a "dahi bhalla" when you can become fried split black gram dumpling smothered with sweetened yoghurt, tamarind and mint sauce.
  • edited June 2016

    pizza said:

    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Who will you take command from when in moral dilemma ??

    1- Conscience
    2- Constitution
    3- Kings


    The is no scope for personal morals when acting in your professional capacity. You have your professional guidelines setup after carefully considering the moral dilemmas of your employer(in this case, the state). You go by the whats legal, lawful and is according to the books. Therefore, the obvious choice is the constitution.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • pizza said:

    pizza said:

    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Who will you take command from when in moral dilemma ??

    1- Conscience
    2- Constitution
    3- Kings


    The is no scope for personal morals when acting in your professional capacity. You have your professional guidelines setup after carefully considering the moral dilemmas of your employer(in this case, the state). You go by the whats legal, lawful and is according to the books. Therefore, the obvious choice is the constitution.
    This question or similar ones have been asked many a times in interview.

    if it's always about legality..civil servant can be immoral but legal in his action! wow!! don't you think the whole rationale behind bringing in GS 4 was rendered on these lines?
    Why to be a "dahi bhalla" when you can become fried split black gram dumpling smothered with sweetened yoghurt, tamarind and mint sauce.
  • But even the Constitution speaks in two voices at times. Take, for instance, the conflict between equality and DPSP. The only true guide is your conscience.
    Prelims : 2/5; Mains : 0/2; Interview : 0; Remainder : 1+1 (Tired but not; Retired) / Medical Science / Kolkata / Nihilist extraordinaire | Thanks a lot...
  • edited June 2016

    pizza said:

    pizza said:

    Etat said:

    ^^ Likely. But the Constitution also cherishes liberty, equality, justice, scientific temper. I guess it's the politician who is biased towards socialism (since IG days). Either you fall in line or fall out. Then again, the whole issue of subjectivity in the exam process is a slap on the face of the ideals of justice and equality. UPSC remains an enigma.

    Yes, there are biases. But as a bureaucrat, one is expected to adhere and execute the objectives of the state. If tomorrow the word socialist is replaced by a bunch politicians biased with something else, the civil servants in future will have to adhere to that.

    Liberty, Equality, Justice, Scientific temper etc are general in nature for common public. They are tweaked where its necessary to achieve the ideals of a state enshrined in our constitution. A civil servant represents the govt and is expected to express his Liberty within the ambit of goals of the state, when acting in his professional capacity.
    Who will you take command from when in moral dilemma ??

    1- Conscience
    2- Constitution
    3- Kings


    The is no scope for personal morals when acting in your professional capacity. You have your professional guidelines setup after carefully considering the moral dilemmas of your employer(in this case, the state). You go by the whats legal, lawful and is according to the books. Therefore, the obvious choice is the constitution.
    This question or similar ones have been asked many a times in interview.

    if it's always about legality..civil servant can be immoral but legal in his action! wow!! don't you think the whole rationale behind bringing in GS 4 was rendered on these lines?
    Kindly give me an example of immoral and still legal. As i have said, morals are highly subjective and varies from on an individual level. What seems moral to u may not seem to me and vice-versa. No action can be taken against you if you are doing legal things, but if you do something illegal citing it as moral, you are sure to be admonished.
    I am no superman to save the world, I have a job of executing the policies of my employer under the legal framework of the country.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • edited June 2016
    Rules are not an end in itself... Rules are means to serve the purpose- ends !
    And sometimes rules are conflicting in nature...
    an old frailing woman comes to the door step of district collector expecting to get rashan card or something but she doesn't have the necessary dastaavej which is required to get a rashan card... What should DC do ?? Should he follow the "rules"??
  • Etat said:

    But even the Constitution speaks in two voices at times. Take, for instance, the conflict between equality and DPSP. The only true guide is your conscience.

    The conflict between equality and DPSP may seem as a conflict to some general public. But when you take the seat of philosophy behind the variations necessary to limit the equality, from a state point of view, there are clear answers as to why it is being done so.
    The scope of conscience is well within the legal framework, a civil servant cant go outside that.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • edited June 2016

    Rules are not an end in itself... Rules are means to serve the purpose- ends !
    And sometimes rules are conflicting in nature...
    an old frailing woman comes to the door step of district collector expecting to get rashan card or something but she doesn't have the necessary dastaavej which is required to get a rashan card... What should DC do ?? Should he follow the "rules"??

    The DC makes sure she gets the relevant dastavez and then issues her the rashan card based on them. :)
    There are rules in which it is clearly mentioned what is the general procedure and what are the extra-ordinary procedures. :) The rule is to efficiently deliver the services to the citizens. Rules aiwein hi nahi bante bhaisaab :)
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • A civil servant has to work with values, empathy, compassion etc... This is the basic philosophy of value committed civil service... Value neutrality is a trait that belongs to British era(and first half of post independence period) civil servants...
  • A civil servant has to work with values, empathy, compassion etc... This is the basic philosophy of value committed civil service... Value neutrality is a trait that belongs to British era(and first half of post independence period) civil servants...

    The scope of values, empathy, compassion is within legal framework. :) You cant be empathetic, compassionate and valued(so called) by going beyond the legal framework.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • Guys, concentrate on prelims. Let's do all these analysis after prelims.
  • Torch bearer of Liberty not defending Liberty :flushed:

    When did i offend liberty :sweat_smile: I have always said "harmless liberty" which means legal liberty. :tongue:
    I have never endorsed absolute liberty.
    Good Bye. See you Later.
  • pizza said:

    Rules are not an end in itself... Rules are means to serve the purpose- ends !
    And sometimes rules are conflicting in nature...
    an old frailing woman comes to the door step of district collector expecting to get rashan card or something but she doesn't have the necessary dastaavej which is required to get a rashan card... What should DC do ?? Should he follow the "rules"??

    The DC makes sure she gets the relevant dastavez and then issues her the rashan card based on them. :)
    There are rules in which it is clearly mentioned what is the general procedure and what are the extra-ordinary procedures. :) The rule is to efficiently deliver the services to the citizens. Rules aiwein hi nahi bante bhaisaab :)
    Pyare bhaisahab, thousands of rules aaj ke date mein apna purpose kho chuke hain... aur dheere dheere unko garbage mein bheja ja raha hai... process slow hai political reasons ki wajah se but fir bhi ho raha yeh... bahot saare rules hain Jo aapas mein hi contradictory hain, unko bhi niptaya ja raha...

    Govt organisation mein imaandari se kaam karne mein for right reasons if you break some rules and justify it... you will be spared...

  • @pizza

    I am surprized you asking for examples which are plenty in the life of a civil servant.

    You got order from higher officials to weed out the encroachment from the pavement and you know there is a lady in a barsati hut there taking care of a cancer-inflicted father. Govt has made no prior arrangements for relocation and you know your action will cause great trouble and most probably death for many of them in similar condition..but orders are very clear as 3 days later a UN official is to visit the place and it's important for govt to get that place vacated for showing purpose.

    and i am not saying you be a hero but the rationale behind bringing in GS 4 was exactly opposite of what you saying.
    Why to be a "dahi bhalla" when you can become fried split black gram dumpling smothered with sweetened yoghurt, tamarind and mint sauce.
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