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Is pocket veto applicable in case of money bill?

hello guys, Is pocket veto applicable in case of money bill? The president can either ratify it or reject it, but what about keeps the bill pending?
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Comments

  • no time mentioned to provide assent or reject, so technically he can. But unlikely that he will, because with his approval only it got introduced.

    Also though these vetos have been rarely used, but I think all vetos - pocket, absolute and suspensive are great discretionary power in indian president. So if there is popular president, he can really create issues for government.


    ++ @Neyawn, @DrKingSchultz, @ForumIAS - please clear the doubt.
    IPS in making
  • hello guys, Is pocket veto applicable in case of money bill? The president can either ratify it or reject it, but what about keeps the bill pending?

    YES. IT'S APPLICABLE.
    BLOOD, SWEAT, COURAGE, GLORY.
  • Pocket veto is not a "veto" in its true sense. It's refers to "inaction"
    President not using any power/veto, he just not doing anything on that bill, as he not bound by any time limit u cannot say President used this pocket veto. It's just like "bill pending for President assent" or "under consideration".

    Technically pocket veto applies to all President decision (even Constitution Amendment Bill that president bound to give assent, just because there is no time limit for President decision (USA 10 days time limit) "pocket of Indian President bigger than that of American President"

    Same for President decision on mercy petition. But SC stepped in and ruled there cannot be any inordinate delay in deciding mercy petition and commuted petitioners' death sentence for that delay. (Judicial review over president decision on mercy petition).
    Same might happen if any President use/abuse pocket veto ( to ensure accountability)
    Hunt alone
  • edited February 13
    """Technically pocket veto applies to all President decision (even Constitution Amendment Bill that president bound to give assent, just because there is no time limit for President decision (USA 10 days time limit) "pocket of Indian President bigger than that of American President""""

    inaction - is his sole decisions, right?

    Can he reject money bill saying that what was approved by him was something else, but in LS after multiple amendemets the bill has changed.?
    IPS in making
  • """Technically pocket veto applies to all President decision (even Constitution Amendment Bill that president bound to give assent, just because there is no time limit for President decision (USA 10 days time limit) "pocket of Indian President bigger than that of American President""""

    Rejection and inaction - both are his sole decisions, right?

    Can he reject money bill saying that what was approved by him was something else, but in LS after multiple amendemets the bill has changed.?

    No! President can't take any decision in his discretion. ANY!
    Except that 'pocket' veto, that too because time limit is not mentioned.

    And choosing of Prime Minister in case of no majority and two parties/alliances have almost same number.

    And may be, using that power of being informed under article 78.

    And then the power of Once sending back the bill when comes for assent.

    Other than these 4 provisions, President has to be bound by CoM, as ofcourse we are a democracy and we choose CoM not President directly.


    The matter of choosing pocket veto on money bill looks even technically weak, because, since this bill has not be send back and assent/rejection has to be as per advice of CoM, holding is tantamount to being against constitution. In ordinary bill cases, he has the leverage to pretend that since he has the option(totally discretionary power!) to send it back for reconsideration and there's no time limit so let me enjoy this power.
  • Pocket Veto are not applicable to Money Bills as they are introduced after President's Permission
  • """Technically pocket veto applies to all President decision (even Constitution Amendment Bill that president bound to give assent, just because there is no time limit for President decision (USA 10 days time limit) "pocket of Indian President bigger than that of American President""""

    Rejection and inaction - both are his sole decisions, right?

    Can he reject money bill saying that what was approved by him was something else, but in LS after multiple amendemets the bill has changed.?

    No! President can't take any decision in his discretion. ANY!
    Except that 'pocket' veto, that too because time limit is not mentioned.

    And choosing of Prime Minister in case of no majority and two parties/alliances have almost same number.

    And may be, using that power of being informed under article 78.

    And then the power of Once sending back the bill when comes for assent.

    Other than these 4 provisions, President has to be bound by CoM, as ofcourse we are a democracy and we choose CoM not President directly.


    The matter of choosing pocket veto on money bill looks even technically weak, because, since this bill has not be send back and assent/rejection has to be as per advice of CoM, holding is tantamount to being against constitution. In ordinary bill cases, he has the leverage to pretend that since he has the option(totally discretionary power!) to send it back for reconsideration and there's no time limit so let me enjoy this power.

    Correct. Thanks
    IPS in making
  • These veto, President discretion are delicate things, I don't want to enter (re-re-enter!!) into arguments or commentary type of discussion!
    After short while I try to post full details in one comment.
    Hunt alone
  • hello guys, Is pocket veto applicable in case of money bill? The president can either ratify it or reject it, but what about keeps the bill pending?

    Yes, the president can use his pocket veto power.
  • yes pocket veto is applicable here....incase of money bill president has only two options . 1.give his assent 2. withold it. He cant send it back.
  • edited February 13
    Generally President can give accent or use any of 3 veto power
    1. Rejecting or withholding (it refers Absolute veto)
    2. Return the bill for reconsideration of Parliament (Suspense veto)
    3. No action ie. not rejected and not returned, just keeping under consideration for any period of time (Pocket veto). Here need to understand due to this nature, we cannot say President used or not this. This is not a veto in true sense, just a conclusion based on President's inaction on a particular bill. So this pocket veto power is ALWAYS available!

    Now, for ordinary bill all 3 veto power applicable.

    For money bill:
    President can
    1. reject (Absolute veto) or
    2. keep it under his consideration for any period of time (pocket veto).
    But cannot return for reconsideration (Suspense veto)

    For Constitution Amendment Bill:
    President bound to give his assent (24th CAA, 1971). So President cannot reject (Absolute veto) or return (Suspense veto).
    But still President can use so called Pocket veto by using the lack of time limit for giving his assent (this is unprecedented situation but yet possible under our Constitution. Only way to resolve these kind of situation is SC stepping in as happened with mercy petition or impeachment by Parliament)

    Now look at the past President's veto usage to clearly understand
    Only 3 instances (2 absolute veto + 1 suspense veto) veto power used by Indian President (don't consider pocket veto, that is not a veto technically)
    1. 1954 - Rajendra Prasad used absolute veto (rejected) PEPSU Appropriation Bill.
    Patiala and East Punjab States Union (PEPSU) was a state existed till 1956 (now partly lies in Punjab, Haryana, HP). This appropriation bill was passed during imposition of President rule in PEPSU state and send to president assent. But later President rule was revoked. So President rejected that appropriation bill.

    2. 1991 - R Venkataraman rejected (absolute veto) for Salary, Allowances and Pensions of Members of Parliament Bill. It's a money bill that passed on last day of the Lok Sabha just before it's dissolution without getting prior recommendation from President.

    3. 1989 - R Venkataraman returned (suspense veto) the Indian Post Office amendment Bill for reconsideration.

    In these things Parliament, President, CoM are involved.
    Parliament passes the bill and send it to President for his assent.
    President acts on CoM advice.
    CoM can advise to give assent or reject or "return it to Parliament" for reconsideration. President is not returning the CoM's recommendation for its reconsideration. Many misunderstanding that way. President can disagree with Parliament, if CoM advise that (cannot disagree with CoM) In these situations always President bound by CoM recommendation. Only alternative or his own discretion is being silent (pocket veto). So even returning the bill for Parliament reconsideration (suspense veto) is exercised under CoM recommendation.
    Now u can understand why there is no suspense veto (returning) for money bill! If Parliament pass the same money bill again and return it to President he is now bound to give his assent! This is ok for ordinary bill, but money bill involve finance. If CoM feels money bill not good, how it can implement it.

    Finally for Indian President discretion is too precious!
    All discretion arise only when there is no clear majority in Lok Sabha.
    1. If a govt lost majority he dismiss and dissolve the Lok Sabha. (Just a formality)
    2. Appointing PM during no clear majority or death of incumbent (anyway they need to prove their majority in Lok Sabha, so it's not much)
    Indeed a rubber stamp!
    Hunt alone
  • edited February 13
    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie

    Sending back is not discretion.
    I explained above.
    Only if CoM advise, President can return (use suspense veto) the bill to Parliament for reconsideration.
    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie

    Sending back is not discretion.
    I explained above.
    Only if CoM advise, President can return (use suspense veto) the bill to Parliament for reconsideration.

    You are totally wrong bro. Sorry, I'm bit busy in mocks. So can't type so verbose as you typed.

    But there are few instances where president used this 'once sending back for reconsideration' power.

    You totally missed the 'letter and spirit' behind that 46th(?) Amendment where this reconsideration provision was added.

    I'll add those instances (given in The state of The Nation book) where President Kalam sent the bill back.

  • Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie

    Sending back is not discretion.
    I explained above.
    Only if CoM advise, President can return (use suspense veto) the bill to Parliament for reconsideration.

    You are totally wrong bro. Sorry, I'm bit busy in mocks. So can't type so verbose as you typed.

    But there are few instances where president used this 'once sending back for reconsideration' power.

    You totally missed the 'letter and spirit' behind that 46th(?) Amendment where this reconsideration provision was added.

    I'll add those instances (given in The state of The Nation book) where President Kalam sent the bill back.

    Ok carry on mock!
    When u free explain those.
    Hunt alone
  • You have few misunderstanding. Assent or withdrawal of assent is totally the power of Council of Ministers advice.

    Sending it once back for reconsideration is totally President's pregorative.

    Money bill's reconsideration is not possible as explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Because its sole prerogative of Council of ministers (depending on collective responsibility of Lower House).
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie

    Sending back is not discretion.
    I explained above.
    Only if CoM advise, President can return (use suspense veto) the bill to Parliament for reconsideration.

    You are totally wrong bro. Sorry, I'm bit busy in mocks. So can't type so verbose as you typed.

    But there are few instances where president used this 'once sending back for reconsideration' power.

    You totally missed the 'letter and spirit' behind that 46th(?) Amendment where this reconsideration provision was added.

    I'll add those instances (given in The state of The Nation book) where President Kalam sent the bill back.

    Ok carry on mock!
    When u free explain those.
    Sure bro :)

    I'll cite the exact paragraphs too.
  • @Lone Wolf @Forumnewbie

    ""CoM can advise to give assent or reject or "return it to Parliament" for reconsideration. President is not returning the CoM's recommendation for its reconsideration. Many misunderstanding that way. President can disagree with Parliament, if CoM advise that (cannot disagree with CoM) In these situations always President bound by CoM recommendation. Only alternative or his own discretion is being silent (pocket veto). So even returning the bill for Parliament reconsideration (suspense veto) is exercised under CoM recommendation"""


    This time you are absolutely wrong. President sending the bill for reconsideration is his sole discretion. APJ Abdul kalam sent it back to LS in office of profit case against the wishes of CoM.

    But again, yes CoM can advise president to not given assent and send for reconsideration back to the house if it is ordinary bill..

    2ndly, Not taking any action is a kind of veto only.

    3rdly, ". If a govt lost majority he dismiss and dissolve the Lok Sabha. (Just a formality)"
    President may even decide not to dissolve the LS, he can ask another leader to assume leadership if it is not a majority government, This has happened in 1999.

    Art 78, 85 are also his discretion.

    I will say that if president is really a badass kind, he can use various provisions. Simply seeking information from PM gives him popularity otherwise if is really rubberstamp then why opposition goes to president like recently for not being satisfied in Justice Loya's case. It is another matter, that political parties choose a yes man only for this post.
    IPS in making
  • @Lone Wolf @Forumnewbie

    ""CoM can advise to give assent or reject or "return it to Parliament" for reconsideration. President is not returning the CoM's recommendation for its reconsideration. Many misunderstanding that way. President can disagree with Parliament, if CoM advise that (cannot disagree with CoM) In these situations always President bound by CoM recommendation. Only alternative or his own discretion is being silent (pocket veto). So even returning the bill for Parliament reconsideration (suspense veto) is exercised under CoM recommendation"""


    This time you are absolutely wrong. President sending the bill for reconsideration is his sole discretion. APJ Abdul kalam sent it back to LS in office of profit case against the wishes of CoM.

    But again, yes CoM can advise president to not given assent and send for reconsideration back to the house if it is ordinary bill..

    2ndly, Not taking any action is a kind of veto only.

    3rdly, ". If a govt lost majority he dismiss and dissolve the Lok Sabha. (Just a formality)"
    President may even decide not to dissolve the LS, he can ask another leader to assume leadership if it is not a majority government, This has happened in 1999.

    Art 78, 85 are also his discretion.

    I will say that if president is really a badass kind, he can use various provisions. Simply seeking information from PM gives him popularity otherwise if is really rubberstamp then why opposition goes to president like recently for not being satisfied in Justice Loya's case. It is another matter, that political parties choose a yes man only for this post.

    @Walt_Disney
    Article 85 is not his discretion!! (Even the president can't modify the speech provided by CoM, although Kalam used some 'tricks' to put forward his cyrptic msg to the government : some Poem as starter)

    Those 4 situations I have earlier mentioned and plus that grey area of 'dissolution or new PM appointment' in case of loss of confidence may be another situation of discretion. Other than that nothing his under his discretion.


    Judge Loya case like events are PURELY Symbolic, although it has constraining effect on the government.

    - CoM doesn't need to advice for reconsideration, passing a bill is not some game ki, "Hey, we passed the bill in Lower House but now my mood is changed, let's ask President to send for reconsideration cause we forgot to add something". Sending for reconsideration is very powerful event, and it is sole Presidents prerogative. Although technically a new formed CoM can request for reconsideration.

    And for your last paragraph, sorry President can't and should not be a badass. More than sending for reconsideration (and using pocket veto), he can also re-sign and put pressure. That's it. Don't make a Parliamentary Democracy as Presidents System. There's a whole chapter on this issue by Fali Nariman.
  • edited February 13
    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    What difficulty/confusion are you facing in comprehding this Article :
    image

    And do you think President would use this power except in extraordinary situations??

    I'll add those references in a while. Don't worry. But first try to understand Article 74.
  • edited February 13

    Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    What difficulty/confusion are you facing in comprehding this Article :
    image

    And do you think President would use this power except in extraordinary situations??

    I'll add those references in a while. Don't worry. But first try to understand Article 74.
    Ok now ans my question!
    Q1. If one bill passed by Parliament and send to President for his assent. Now CoM advise President to give his assent.
    What constitutes President discretion?
    A. President return CoM recommendation to CoM for their reconsideration
    Or
    B. President return the bill to Parliament for its reconsideration.
    Or
    C. Anything else, better!

    Q2. What is Suspense veto? How it different from Qualified veto?
    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    I hope this is visible enough.

    image

  • Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    What difficulty/confusion are you facing in comprehding this Article :
    image

    And do you think President would use this power except in extraordinary situations??

    I'll add those references in a while. Don't worry. But first try to understand Article 74.
    Ok now ans my question!
    Q1. If one bill passed by Parliament and send to President for his assent. Now CoM advise President to give his assent.
    What constitutes President discretion?
    A. President return CoM recommendation to CoM for their reconsideration
    Or
    B. President return the bill to Parliament for its reconsideration.
    Or
    C. Anything else, better!

    Q2. What is Suspense veto? How it different from Qualified veto?
    WHY ARE YOU MAKING ALL THIS TOO CONFUSING.
    Now,

    Answer 1 : article 74 ( in general) and article 111 (in case of Bills) provide an element of discretion to send once back for reconsideration to CoM or Parliament respectively.

    Answer 2: Suspensive is when Legislature can override Executive veto for ordinary majority. This is not possible in India, so this see French Presidential power.
    Qualified veto is when Legislature needs EXTRAordinary majority to override Executive veto. This happens in US.

    These are not possible in India. India has a combination of absolute, Suspensive, and pocket veto.

  • Just a genuine suggestion, if you have more doubt and want to clear everything, read each and every line of Union Executive chapter from DD Basu.
    Btw, If I would know, I could also answer your queries.
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    What difficulty/confusion are you facing in comprehding this Article :
    image

    And do you think President would use this power except in extraordinary situations??

    I'll add those references in a while. Don't worry. But first try to understand Article 74.
    Ok now ans my question!
    Q1. If one bill passed by Parliament and send to President for his assent. Now CoM advise President to give his assent.
    What constitutes President discretion?
    A. President return CoM recommendation to CoM for their reconsideration
    Or
    B. President return the bill to Parliament for its reconsideration.
    Or
    C. Anything else, better!

    Q2. What is Suspense veto? How it different from Qualified veto?
    WHY ARE YOU MAKING ALL THIS TOO CONFUSING.
    Now,

    Answer 1 : article 74 ( in general) and article 111 (in case of Bills) provide an element of discretion to send once back for reconsideration to CoM or Parliament respectively.

    Answer 2: Suspensive is when Legislature can override Executive veto for ordinary majority. This is not possible in India, so this see French Presidential power.
    Qualified veto is when Legislature needs EXTRAordinary majority to override Executive veto. This happens in US.

    These are not possible in India. India has a combination of absolute, Suspensive, and pocket veto.

    I ask u for reconsideration on suspense veto!
    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    @Walt_Disney @Forumnewbie
    Can someone show any text/article for President discretion on sending back bill to Parliament for reconsideration (against CoM advice)?!

    Because if returning bill is President's discretion he can use that any situation (whether CoM recommend to give assent or reject) it makes CoM recommendation as advisory one and President's discretion as final (atleast for returning every ordinary bill to Parliament)

    What difficulty/confusion are you facing in comprehding this Article :
    image

    And do you think President would use this power except in extraordinary situations??

    I'll add those references in a while. Don't worry. But first try to understand Article 74.
    Ok now ans my question!
    Q1. If one bill passed by Parliament and send to President for his assent. Now CoM advise President to give his assent.
    What constitutes President discretion?
    A. President return CoM recommendation to CoM for their reconsideration
    Or
    B. President return the bill to Parliament for its reconsideration.
    Or
    C. Anything else, better!

    Q2. What is Suspense veto? How it different from Qualified veto?
    WHY ARE YOU MAKING ALL THIS TOO CONFUSING.
    Now,

    Answer 1 : article 74 ( in general) and article 111 (in case of Bills) provide an element of discretion to send once back for reconsideration to CoM or Parliament respectively.

    Answer 2: Suspensive is when Legislature can override Executive veto for ordinary majority. This is not possible in India, so this see French Presidential power.
    Qualified veto is when Legislature needs EXTRAordinary majority to override Executive veto. This happens in US.

    These are not possible in India. India has a combination of absolute, Suspensive, and pocket veto.

    I ask u for reconsideration on suspense veto!
    Please rephrase this ^^ clearly.

    Sending for reconsideration, then Legislature overrides it (rejecting the message of reconsideration) with simple majority, then Executive(President here) becomes bound to accept the reconsidered view of Legislature => this is Suspensive Veto in India.

    Read that screenshot once.
  • Suspense veto is what present in India. President send bill for reconsideration to Parliament. Parliament pass same with same ordinary majority and return to President. President bound to give his assent
    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Suspense veto is what present in India. President send bill for reconsideration to Parliament. Parliament pass same with same ordinary majority and return to President. President bound to give his assent

    Yeah, keep repeating my exact same reply!
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Suspense veto is what present in India. President send bill for reconsideration to Parliament. Parliament pass same with same ordinary majority and return to President. President bound to give his assent

    Yeah, keep repeating my exact same reply!
    ""Answer 2: Suspensive is when Legislature can override Executive veto for ordinary majority. This is not possible in India, so this see French Presidential power""

    U mentioned suspense veto not possible in India!

    Hunt alone
  • Lone Wolf said:

    Lone Wolf said:

    Suspense veto is what present in India. President send bill for reconsideration to Parliament. Parliament pass same with same ordinary majority and return to President. President bound to give his assent

    Yeah, keep repeating my exact same reply!
    ""Answer 2: Suspensive is when Legislature can override Executive veto for ordinary majority. This is not possible in India, so this see French Presidential power""

    U mentioned suspense veto not possible in India!

    Yeah, I took it as stand-alone power there. Sorry about the confusion there. But in that same reply, I have clearly ended with that India has a combination of Absolute (direct assent/rejection), Suspensive, and Pokcet veto.

    And hopefully, your doubt on the discretionary reconsideration power is cleared.
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